Adding marriage - poll about how you find its priority

[phoenixshenanigans]

It seems alot of people aren't completely excited about the idea of marriage. However, I see it with a different view.

I base alot of my interest and fascination in this game, from my huge interest in Viking sagas and stories. As a Dane, I'm perhaps one of the few who still is interested in the old stories and development of how things and history went from being such an iconic age, to a modern Scandinavian society, with a lack of sense for the huge amount of history from our forefathers. I understand that the Unreal World is based in another Scandinavian country, with a different culture and history, but in my understanding there will be some overlap between Norse culture and Finnish in this time period.

One huge thing that stands out in the Sagas, is the immense hierachical nature of the Viking age, and the family ties that was a big part of the culture. Big Viking farms would often have a family that owned it, as well as "common" folk working there, along with their families, although they would not have the same status as the family who owned it. I can see this pattern in the Unreal World, where the small farms (Marked on the map as a single house, not a village), where it can seem like a family, but it could also be with common workers there, which would make for big and very closely knitted societies.

I completely agree, that having a marriage with the current AI-functions, wouldn't add much to the game, however I think the only thing that would really add to the Unreal Worlds lategame, would be of a social nature. My current character, who I use alot of time on, lives with huge amounts of food, based solely on a few fields of rye and big game he hunts. I have fought dozens of Njerpez warriors, I've arranged raids of Islander warriors to Njerpez lands and ransacked an entire Njerpez village. I live with plenty of bounty, furs and jewelry and food supplies for years, and here is what I see as the biggest "problem": What now? I remember someone suggested a challenge on the forum, about whether people could acquire the finest furs from all animals in the Unreal World. I can only see this, as a sign that people eventually get bored, once they get past the hard start, and before settling down, but once this has been done, the gameplay sorts of gets in a standstill in my opinion.

If one of the arguments for NOT implementing marriage, or having other common folk living in your settlement is that it is a resource drain, I honestly don't see the problem. Having a diet of various stews and grains is very easy to attend to, and if the AI would be able to help in the process of acquiring food, I don't see this as a problem. I understand if alot of players don't want to handle these "dilemmas" but having a settlement with a wife and some local folk around does not need to be a priority for everyone, but the option would be nice.

If I could describe an ideal lategame addition to Unreal World, it would the ability to have actual friends and wives. The whole idea of being able to transfer into your kids when you die, isn't in my opinion a priority. I would like to have a living farm though, with interactions between NPC's and between them and you. It would make for a much more immersive world, when you are not just the loner wandering alone in the woods trying to survive on your own, but instead being part of something. I am greatly pleased with the current quest system, which could be a big part of these interactions between NPC's in your settlement.

I hope this is not just gibberish, and I need to point out, that this is not at all a critique of the current game. I absolutely love and adore Unreal World, and I think my 800 hours of gameplay confirms that, and I think there has been alot of great updates lately. My only hope is just, that the future holds more changes to the lategame features of the game.

[PALU]

I think phenixshenanigans may over estimate the commonality between the (pre) Viking Scandinavian culture and the Finnish culture. I would expect Scandianavians to have had more in common with the older Celtic culture, for instance, than with the Finnish one.

I have nothing against having a spouse being a resource drain of sorts (dogs are, currently), but I definitely do not like a development where it is ONLY a resource drain, without bringing something with it in the form of new interactions and perhaps shared labor.
An Iron Age trophy spouse is just plain boring.

I certainly agree that once you get past the two first years (or the first one, even) things get fairly easy (although you can still get killed through bad luck, carelessness, overconfidence, or a suicidal Nerp purge campaign).

Friends and family ties could add to the game, in particular at the later stages, but it might not be that easy to develop those to get a suitable balance between chores and interesting developments.

[phoenixshenanigans]

I think phenixshenanigans may over estimate the commonality between the (pre) Viking Scandinavian culture and the Finnish culture. I would expect Scandianavians to have had more in common with the older Celtic culture, for instance, than with the Finnish one.

You are probably right - however, in the concrete example with having small close-knitted communities, I think it would be a fairly widespread cultural phenomenon, as there is strength in numbers. Having strong relations with others is just plain survival instincts, and therefore I think it would be a good addition in this game.

I have nothing against having a spouse being a resource drain of sorts (dogs are, currently), but I definitely do not like a development where it is ONLY a resource drain, without bringing something with it in the form of new interactions and perhaps shared labor.
An Iron Age trophy spouse is just plain boring.

I certainly agree that once you get past the two first years (or the first one, even) things get fairly easy (although you can still get killed through bad luck, carelessness, overconfidence, or a suicidal Nerp purge campaign).

Friends and family ties could add to the game, in particular at the later stages, but it might not be that easy to develop those to get a suitable balance between chores and interesting developments.

Completely agreed. Therefore I'd go so far as to say that I don't think marriage is the most important thing to add, but instead updating the AI to a point where social interaction will be more fulfilling. From there, the step to implementing marriage is probably easier to manage, and far more interesting.

[PALU]

I agree with your agreement that social networks are probably the most important part, and a spouse then becomes a logical icing of that cake. I'd probably start with friends and settlement relations to then go on to apply those structures to a character biological family (that can be opted out of when generating the character), and then add the spouse last, as I'd expect a spouse to bring the family relations of that side into the equation, and if that groundwork has already been done it ought to be reasonably smooth and can focus on the stuff related to an actual family rather than the external networks.

[Roheline]

I was considering the idea of marriage and I wonder if the current quest mechanism would work as a way to code in the process?

There could be specific (but hidden to the player) requirements to be met (be known to the village for a certain amount of time, high reputation, fulfill x other quests, etc) and at some point a dialogue might pop up that says "You know, I hear Marti the Reemi maiden over there was hoping to settle down one of these days..." and then the player can choose whether or not to pursue further interactions with that NPC. The actual process could be a quest of sorts...talk to the NPC, NPC says you need to ask my father/mother, points you to another NPC, said parent sends you on a task to prove yourself, etc etc.

I don't know much about marriage in Iron Age Finland, but it could all be done in keeping with what we know about it historically, even the marriage ceremony itself could involve a ritual where objects are placed in a certain way/ritual words are said. It's great that we have a quest mechanism already in place that can do this.

As a female who largely plays female players, I would of course like the marriage process to be able to go in both directions.

[LungOnLy]

Really want it badly : so we can protect someone from danger especially njerpezit. (And robbers)..
Have been waiting this for a long long time.Really I love this game 

[princebunnyboy]

Like most I'd like for marriage, but npc AI is more important. That was the issue last time, it didn't feel really alive. I think development is pushing for animals right now, which I'm so hyped for.

I think that being able to have baby animals, wild and domestic and having animal breeding would dip our toes into developing families and children aging, well in animals atleast.

Also fingers crossed for gay marriage  !

[hantu1911]

Prefer slavery better than marriage feature. At least I can sell the slave if he/she does not perform well. 

[PALU]

Prefer slavery better than marriage feature. At least I can sell the slave if he/she does not perform well. 

I doubt there was much slavery in iron age Finland, as slavery implies a social structure both where some people are wealthy enough to have slaves, and there being labor to apply those slaves to.

Vikings crossed the thrall sea to Finland and the Baltic countries to catch thralls and secondary wives, but being the victims in not the same.

Regardless, the question was about marriage, not slavery, although I guess this can be considered an "other important features first" post for a feature that I doubt will be included.

[hantu1911]

I doubt there was much slavery in iron age Finland, as slavery implies a social structure both where some people are wealthy enough to have slaves, and there being labor to apply those slaves to.

Vikings crossed the thrall sea to Finland and the Baltic countries to catch thralls and secondary wives, but being the victims in not the same.

Regardless, the question was about marriage, not slavery, although I guess this can be considered an "other important features first" post for a feature that I doubt will be included.

Thanks for your input. I do agree that full scale slavery does not seem to be practice in Iron age Finland.

As for capturing female for spouse, I do have succesfully lock up the last of Nperz Maiden. If she died, the entire Nperz cultural would be elimanated from the map. 

[PALU]

I doubt there was much slavery in iron age Finland, as slavery implies a social structure both where some people are wealthy enough to have slaves, and there being labor to apply those slaves to.

Vikings crossed the thrall sea to Finland and the Baltic countries to catch thralls and secondary wives, but being the victims in not the same.

Regardless, the question was about marriage, not slavery, although I guess this can be considered an "other important features first" post for a feature that I doubt will be included.

Thanks for your input. I do agree that full scale slavery does not seem to be practice in Iron age Finland.

As for capturing female for spouse, I do have succesfully lock up the last of Nperz Maiden. If she died, the entire Nperz cultural would be elimanated from the map. 

Well, a Njerpez maiden *should* accept your character's "marriage proposal" and then slit his throat as soon as he went asleep. Unfortunately, I think they're too insane to be that calculating.

[shorun]

I just put a long post is a separate subject that probably should have gone here:

I have a few comments on the marriage poll and incorporating marriage into URW.  Others can comment on the role-playing nature of an NPC spouse or the ability to have children and have a multi-generational URW experience.  But I am reducing the arguments to two options for incorporating a NPC spouse: 1) the Resource Drain NPC Spouse, or 2) the Resource Generator NPC Spouse.  These options might be considered over simplifications (they are mechanistically not mutually exclusive). 

Option 1: The Resource Drain
For this option, a NPC spouse becomes a drain on player resources.  First, the spouse must be wooed and courted with furs, tools, weapons, valuables, etc.  In this option, a significant expenditure of player time is given to attract and then obtain a spouse.  The "cost" of a spouse would then be proportional to the perceived "value" of that spouse.  In this scenario, the spouse becomes a status symbol for the player through their ability to attract the "best".  It could be even that the spouse gives the player increasingly difficult quests as they become more involved along the wooing path.  Maybe there are differences between an in-culture marriage versus an out-of-culture marriage?

Second, after a marriage ceremony, the spouse must be provided for.  In this option, the NPC spouse is a bystander that consumes the player's food, clothes, tools, and weapons (maybe also armor, cords, bandages, bowls, etc.).  The player must spend time ensuring the spouse is sufficiently provided for so they stay committed to the marriage and alive.  In this option, a NPC spouse likely functions like current NPC villagers.  They wander around a specific location or follow the player around, but have limited utility.

The entire purpose of a resource drain NPC spouse is to add a monumental achievement to the URW experience.  That is, the player can not only provide for them-self, but they can attract and maintain the NPC spouse as a status symbol.  The resource drain NPC spouse then would "unlock" PALU's generational feature...

It can also be noted that there are probably very few people who play their characters for 17+ years so that they could have had "adult" offspring. This means you could potentially start a family, but any children would be unlikely to be adult when your character expires, so if a generational feature would be introduced it would probably have to be able to skip a number of years, which would require some kind of logic to advance the world (which should include repopulating village animal stocks, at the least, and probably replace some of all those villagers who died fighting robbers with your ex character as well).

Option 2: The Resource Generator
For this option, a NPC spouse would need to function differently than other villager or companion NPCs.  The NPC spouse in this scenario would need to be a productive member to contribute to living in URW.  For example, the resource generator NPC spouse would need to actually engage in meaningful labor around a settlement or while on a hunt.  This means they would need to accept and execute commands that take advantage of skills.  A resource generator NPC spouse is likely more accurate (they help contribute to life), but much more difficult to develop.  This option could also lead to players gaming the system or to unexpected results (or danger to the NPC spouse) due to poorly issues commands and limitations of the AI. 

A wooing process would need to take place.  However, while a resource drain NPC spouse would be a status symbol, a resource generator NPC spouse would be valued to complement the player.  For example, if a player is unskilled in something, woo a resource generator NPC spouse to compensate so they can perform those skills for you.

Once the courtship is completed, the resource generator NPC spouse would need to be functionally helpful to a player.  For example, if a player provides the necessary items (tools, weapons, seeds, pots, cords, etc.) and key instructions (location of a field to prepare/tend, trap fence to monitor, materials to process, etc.), the resource generator NPC spouse could process through a que of instructions.  For example, a resource generating NPC spouse could contribute to agriculture, hideworking, fishing, food preparation (smoking, salting, drying meat or making flatbread, stews, grinding flour, etc.), hunting, building, monitoring a trap fence, checking traps, making clothes, tools, or weapons, etc..  A resource generator NPC spouse would need to have skills that would affect their ability to perform all of these actions/functions. 

The entire purpose of a resource generator NPC spouse would be to expand a players skills set, provide a companion in shared activities, and/or help reduce the tedium that can occur when surviving in URW (i.e. division of labor).   I can imagine scenarios where the resource generator NPC spouse...

• prepares the soil, plants seeds, harvests crops, threshes for grain/seeds, grinds flour
• skins a carcass, cleans the skin, tans furs and leather
• butchers and smoke the meat or cooks any of the other food recipes
• prepares logs, blocks of wood, boards, etc.
• builds a wooden building or kota if the player outlines the walls and doors
• follows a circuit of traps, or a trap fence, to collect the trapped animals, reset the traps
• being sent out into a delineated geography and asked to harvest all the berries or herbs of a given type
• wanders a geographical area to actively hunt
• joins the player and sets traps in a designated place
• joins the player on an active hunt
• follows the player to a village to trade and carry items
• etc.

I've said too much...

Option 1 would be easier and provide for "end game" objectives.
Option 2 would require the player to spend a great deal of time managing the NPC spouse.

how about both. your spouse can either be a partner, doing hard labour and helping you set up, and while pregnant/with child be a resource drain.

children/offspring will obviously be a resource drain, you could get them to gather branches or milk the cow, but no real use for them.

add to that aging, make old age matter by reducing stats such as eyesight, strength, endurance, speed. eventually you'll need your wife/kids to gather enough for everyone and combined with animal husbandry (wich would require you to farm food for the animals) promote a whole different lifestyle.

once dead, the option to continue as one of your children should be present, letting you chose to continue living as the family head and simply taking over as another character, or  making you strike out on your own with a few random tools (a reason to have spares/doubles, eg: if you have 2 punts, give one of those punts to the player), setting the village you built with your first character as an npc village just like any other. except of course these are your siblings.

make villages repopulate as well, over time of course (a system where if a villager dies, a random couple in town gives birth), unless the village got completely wiped or has no more breeding pair. right now, every dead villager is permanent, eventually your save will be ruined, but a renewal system would prevent this.


i know it's all a lot of work, but how nice would it be to be able to relate to other npc's, see your character grow up from baby to adult, see the homesteads you've built grow into towns, even connect them with roads, build your own tribe!

[Nydxz]

 Being a bit late on the post I apologize for bringing it back from the dead, I think.

 From my point of view, marriage would be a great asset for the game, but not before updating npc AI.
 The finnish have a closely tied society back in the iron ages. That is, inside their own cultures, an stranger from another culture would be judged by their cultural background and situations that happened on the past, or you think your the first Kumolaiset to get to Driiik? Obviously no.
 The Njerpez should need a completely new AI, launching raids into villages every now and then, adding in some quests. The Njerpez want slaves, that's about it, most of people are kept alive.
 The villages structure have a sage and a chief, both with the same power within the village, being in favor with them should be really hard, as they are suspicious of outsiders, unknown people.
 There should have been added diferent sets of AI codes to simulate various "personalities", not everyone is going to fight a 2,30m tall Kaumolaiset in full Iron set, HELL! no one will fight that! I wouldn't.
 Since the Roman occupation of Finnland there's been documents discribing the peculiarities of the culture and "kings" of sorts, that means the very culture is well stabilished and have a strong sense of comunity.
 Add in scouts on the cultural regions and maybe even some in the wild.
 Let the world live without the PC interaction, let the kaumo go to driik to trade or whatever, let the village people travel around and let whole villages move to a new location based on water, and source of food,pelts(hunting game)
 Family ties, make npcs to recognize who are their wife/husband, they should get offspring, they should eat, they should drink, they should freeze.
 And last of all, a Family is not equal other, some have more influency, some have less.
 And if you want to have some end game? Well, let the PC unite all finnish cultures togheter. But maybe, the Islanders will not like the Owl-tribe eh? xD

 I know the text is big, I don't expect it all to be implemented but I'd like to see. Sorry for asking too much @Sami

[Maisling]

Great Idea but sounds complex to implement properly. I feel like quests need tweaking a bit first. It's utterly mysterious to me how you get a quest that gives you a new incantation and I know the game pretty well. Maybe give a higher chance of getting a spell recieving quest or have shamans give them for getting to know them well. They just seem almost impossible to come by as it is. Also, carpentry seems way too slow to improve compared to other skills. Not just mindlessly complaining, as I love this game and understand it must be time consuming to code with only one or two on the job. Keep up the great work.

[codyo]

For me it would really complete the Unreal World experience to have a good reason to keep playing the game after the first winter. I support some sort of family-building or village-starting feature. Something that the game itself can do to add challenge without the player having to come up with his own handicaps and goals to stay entertained.  Once you know how to survive, the game as is only caters to a very small niche who enjoy playing without end-game challenges.

To those saying NPC interactions and relationships to the character will need to be upgraded first. Yes that's important, but "improving the AI" will be a stepping stone to Marriage anyway. It can be done along the way.