Traps should be nerfed

[codyo]

I've been playing for years now and the big thing I've noticed is how incredibly easy the game becomes after setting up a single trap-fence. Usually on the border of a open mire and a coniferous forest or coniferous mire. Or by just keeping a trap-fence around my settlement I often have an elk or reindeer diving straight into one of my traps once every two months.

I don't know how the mechanic is supposed to work for traps. It feels like having a trap causes the game to spawn an animal which must be forced to path straight to it and die. Having a dozen more traps must cause this chance for a spawn to go up even more.
On my current character I have 3 light-lever traps scattered across my settlement and I am assured some kind of bird to step in one once a week or more. There is a massive amount of capercillies spawning all the time. Maybe it helps I live by a lake as well. There is old lore that small lakes and rapids can be a source for wildlife to spawn.

I only have 28% Trapping skill and I feel way too lucky with my traps. However the mechanic works, animals shouldn't be running into them so easily. I end up with a lot of furs and meat to survive indefinitely with little effort.

[Plotinus]

Traps used to spawn animals directly, but now animals are just spawned in areas that you're spending time, which is usually going to be near your home or trap fence, and then your trapping skill affects what happens from there. If I have very low trapping skill (below 15) then i catch nothing, or animals can get out of my traps very easily. But it is not hard to raise the trapping skill high enough to do well: 20 or 25 is where easy mode starts.

I don't know how lucky a person can expect to be in real life with a trap fence, but I agree with you that the game gets too easy from the moment the first elk visits your trap fence.

I'd support nerfing traps again, but I've been playing for about 12 years and I'm aware that newer players tend to find the game pretty difficult already, and if the learning curve is too steep then maybe newcomers will get too frustrated. It is hard for me to put myself in the shoes of someone new and figure out what would be balanced for them.

[PALU]

A problem is that lowering the chance for traps to catch something based on trapping ability hits beginning characters that may be struggling a bit already, while having effectively no effect on established characters.

A different approach might be to reduce the spawning rate based on how long the character has been in the area over time or the amount of game caught based on fauna being scared away/depopulated. This would target established characters rather than beginners.

[JEB Davis]

...
I'd support nerfing traps again, but I've been playing for about 12 years and I'm aware that newer players tend to find the game pretty difficult already, and if the learning curve is too steep then maybe newcomers will get too frustrated. It is hard for me to put myself in the shoes of someone new and figure out what would be balanced for them.

I wonder if Sami would consider giving players a difficulty option when creating a character?
- Beginner
- Average
- Expert

[PALU]

Multiple difficulty levels means multiple levels of balancing, at least if it's intended to affect the whole game, which adds to Sami's workload throughout the rest of the development, and I doubt that's a good trade-off.

It can be noted that you can adjust the difficulty by re-rolling your character until you get in the ballpark of the stats you want, which means that you can intentionally get a weak character as well as a (probably more common) extremely good one. I certainly wouldn't object to allowing the player a higher degree of control over the starting character's properties, though, as that's probably something that can be done with a limited effort as long as the range available is close to the current RNG one.

[Sami]

I've been playing for years now and the big thing I've noticed is how incredibly easy the game becomes after setting up a single trap-fence. Usually on the border of a open mire and a coniferous forest or coniferous mire. Or by just keeping a trap-fence around my settlement I often have an elk or reindeer diving straight into one of my traps once every two months.

It's quite dangerous to go adjusting the traps as whole based on only few character's playstyle. Trapping is also frustratingly difficult to some at some times. I'd really need to see the trap-setting you have found all-too-easy, and then see what is actually the thing to tweak.
For example, if settlements are surrounded by trap-fences and huge trap complexes that costantly seem to get catch we should better make certain animals more scared of human presence, or human activity, rather than to adjust trap effectiveness.

I find the trapping system working quite nicely, but I'm quite moderate and traditional trapper in the game. So, I could first have look at people's trapping-sites from savegames if you find them unjustly fruitful.

[Buoidda]

20 or 25 is where easy mode starts.

I don't know how lucky a person can expect to be in real life with a trap fence, but I agree with you that the game gets too easy from the moment the first elk visits your trap fence.

I support @codyo and agree with @Plotinus above. I've been playing very low skill characters lately and I agree trapping needs some balancing. For beginners there are skilled character starts available already.

A problem is that lowering the chance for traps to catch something based on trapping ability hits beginning characters that may be struggling a bit already, while having effectively no effect on established characters.

That's why I suggest nerfing trapping against some animals and buffing against others. Also to make trapping more interesting in late game too. I should be a real challenge to lure that elusive bear or wolf finally into a trap.

A different approach might be to reduce the spawning rate based on how long the character has been in the area over time or the amount of game caught based on fauna being scared away/depopulated. This would target established characters rather than beginners.

I have to disagree on this. It would be not fun at all to have islands or areas depopulated of small game even if that's realistic.

Survival with very low (start at 0) skill OR heavy penalties (HHA start scenario) relies on trapping. Fishing has penalties applied (suggestion: shouldn't be so with nets?). For game balance, it's good that birds and hares get easily trapped. It's the sort of thing one can always fall back to when things get rough. It would be bad if they would get depopulated.

But with bigger game, I agree it's too easy. I recently made a suggestion about it too in the buff elk thread. Go like it if you support it: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5892.0

I think one of the main things what makes trapping so good in game is the huge effect of baits. My character bought 2 turnips. With a single turnip he could keep a group of reindeer in place for days, enough to herd them into sea-ice corners, breathless, one at a time.

I think trap fences in the real past were without bait and mainly for deer sized animals. Reindeers have migratory habits so pits would have been in their known path areas, along with active herding towards the pits.

Also I recently trapped 8 out of 9 wolf pack, with a trapping skill of around 15. See it here: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5889.0 Soon I had 5 masterwork axes. Pretty neat for a 16-year old who didn't know anything couple of monts earlier.

Spoiler: a save for wolf trapping • show

https://www.dropbox.com/s/okv4zajxrii36p9/ASLLAT%20wolftrap.7z?dl=0

How I would suggest:
- I would not make laborious fence-building obsolete by having regions grow scarce with game
- only pits for ungulates (elk thread)
- (turnip) baiting strength lessened or even removed for ungulates (it's ok for hares)
- or maybe it should work first, but if the beasts see the character nearby, the individual bait would lose its effect
- valuable big carnivores should be more suspicious of traps so more skill needed with deadfall traps
- make small carnivores (<fox) much more commonly found in deadfall traps: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5828.0
- I'm not hugely in favor of this, but you could make some traps culturally dependent and/or learnable at a later date (but not the essential light lever for survival)

[PALU]

I still think it makes sense for game to grow scarcer over time if you kill them off. However, there should always be some level of migration into the area, so a trap fence should never become obsolete, just not catch as much as it did when the area was untouched by human culling.
My use of the term "depopulation" wasn't meant to indicate total eradication, just a lowering of the population (which, in the game, would probably be a lowering of the spawn rate).

Birds would probably not be affected that much by trapping, as they'd probably move into "free" areas reasonably quickly, but they may well keep their distance from the homestead after a while (lowering the effectiveness of the traps set right outside the door, but not a tile or two away).

While I agree that it's doubtful penalties should affect net effectiveness (but injuries should definitely affect setting time), it doesn't affect more than a single (?) start, as nets normally have to be bought, which implies the character has managed to acquire some "wealth" with which to buy it.

[Buoidda]

@PALU  oh, okay. Yes I agree with you now. The 'net no penalties' would not affect starts, but would offer an alternative to trapping for characters who have been injured later in the game too (and happen to lack food for a reason or another). A badly injured character wouldn't be roaming around checking traps if net fishing would be an option.

What do you think of my other suggestions?

[PALU]

The elk stuff is in the elk thread (posted after you posted, so you hadn't seen it). I don't have strong opinions on the rest, which means I find it OK, but won't get upset if it remains as is (I rarely bother to use bait in traps, as they tend to be rather effective as they are currently).

I agree net fishing should be a good food acquisition activity for a recovering character.

[Roheline]

In my experience, the degree to which traps are "overpowered" depends a lot on luck. I've had characters strategically build a trap fence between an open mire and spruce mire tile after seeing reindeer movement there and end up trapping an entire herd of 9 animals over a few days, to the point where I couldn't preserve all the meat and was pissing off the spirits. On the other hand, I've set many trap fences that never caught a thing.

With my current character I was actually banking on a fruitful trap fence to build up enough wealth in furs to be able to have that character buy some reindeer and test out a nomadic life living off their milk. The combination of nothing in my trap fences and then running into robbers (as I was in the middle of constructing a new trap fence, ironically enough) pretty much ended that plan. Now she's wandering half naked after having all her clothed robbed and shooting arrows with her primitive bow at every grouse that flies by.

Based on many historical reports of various indigenous cultures using fence lines and corrals to send game into trap pits or just driving large herds of animals off cliffs, I'd say there actually is some historical basis for the current success rate of traps. What makes them appear overpowered is more that the food and furs are going to a single individual (I.e. the player) whereas historically such abundance would have been shared out among the tribe or village, just as the process of building the fence line and driving the animals would have been a group endeavor.

I will add that some players do actually enjoy the more settled "end game" scenario and crafting with mods, as much as if not more than the grind to get there. I appreciate that there is at least sometimes an option of hunting windfalls, though for my characters it's still far from consistent. I think those who want a greater challenge can always downgrade their trapping skill, not set as many traps or not set them in areas where reindeer were just spotted, or perhaps redistribute some of the wealth of meat and furs to a local "adopted" village which you could roleplay as your home village.

There are many ways to make this game more challenging but only so many paths to a stable existence. With my own character, I've honestly started to lose interest after getting robbed and not having any luck with trapping, since it means grinding through a winter in a 1 x 1 cabin until I can work back up to my original plan of trading for reindeer to do something other than the typical build cabin and settle path.

[Bert Preast]

I think what needs adjusting is the effect of the trapping skill.  Trapping should be a lifestyle choice, and with low skills your traps should have next to no chance of catching anything, or if something is caught then it should usually escape.  Invest heavily in trapping skill on the other hand, and you should expect to survive well enough on your traps alone.

[Buoidda]

Thank you for contributing.

In my experience, the degree to which traps are "overpowered" depends a lot on luck. I've had characters strategically build a trap fence between an open mire and spruce mire tile after seeing reindeer movement there and end up trapping an entire herd of 9 animals over a few days, to the point where I couldn't preserve all the meat and was pissing off the spirits. On the other hand, I've set many trap fences that never caught a thing.

Spoiler: My response: Traps are not responsible for generating animal presence • show

Luck being here that there will be animals spawning near the traps. I've read that high trapping skill can increase animal spawn rate. But generally traps are not responsible for generating animal presence. I usually start trapping only after confiming animal presence or near my settlement to fend them off/deal with bothersome individuals.

And with traps I always mean traps. Fences are linked semantically, but in game mechanics entirely different thing. And much more important for urw players, imho. Sorry for saying so, but it seems to me that we should be all a bit more precise with the distinction.

I'm aware you can't dig pits in mires. But you don't really need traps at all to get big game, especially if you have time to make fences.

With fences one can enclose entire reindeer herds alive and save them for later or at least kill off one by one so that there is ample time to work. With surprisingly little work if done 'correctly' (or, rather, exploitatively). See the elk thread to know what I mean (a picture in a spoiler in my 3rd comment):https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5892.0

So if anything, fences are overpowered in this game. That I'd address only by having fleeing elks being able to jump over/crush them, which is realistic and benefits game balance a little bit. About traps, at least I said "some balancing".

If someone maintains the position that deadfall traps should trap ungulates (ie because they can be constructed on marshland and baserock), please and welcome to continue debating on that topic on the elk thread.

With my current character I was actually banking on a fruitful trap fence to build up enough wealth in furs to be able to have that character buy some reindeer and test out a nomadic life living off their milk. The combination of nothing in my trap fences and then running into robbers (as I was in the middle of constructing a new trap fence, ironically enough) pretty much ended that plan. Now she's wandering half naked after having all her clothed robbed and shooting arrows with her primitive bow at every grouse that flies by.

This seems to me a more critique on robbers making the game too hard than traps making it easy enough. I hate robbers too, and rarely travel around with my best gear. But that is welcome excitement/risk to me. Maybe you should make a suggestion on robber free areas, like near the powerful Driik for example?

Based on many historical reports of various indigenous cultures using fence lines and corrals to send game into trap pits or just driving large herds of animals off cliffs, I'd say there actually is some historical basis for the current success rate of traps.

Spoiler: My response: success rate of pits • show

success rate of pits, to be more precise (and historical). Success of which I have not suggested any change, except on part of bait. Which again (fence+bait) is a bit unhistorical in my book.

But I'm not saying here that fences shouldn't be used with other traps. I'm pretty convinced they have been too in some circumstances, though I have no explicit knowledge about it.

I repeat:

My suggestions on trap (not fence!) effectiveness (ability of game to actually enter a trap tile and get stuck):
- no ungulates in deadfalls
- harder to get big predators
- more small predators
- smaller bait effect to ungulates

Spoiler: show

What makes them appear overpowered is more that the food and furs are going to a single individual (I.e. the player) whereas historically such abundance would have been shared out among the tribe or village, just as the process of building the fence line and driving the animals would have been a group endeavor.

True. I hired a companion to help, but he's no good at fencing. 

I will add that some players do actually enjoy the more settled "end game" scenario and crafting with mods, as much as if not more than the grind to get there. I appreciate that there is at least sometimes an option of hunting windfalls, though for my characters it's still far from consistent.

No disagreement here.

I think those who want a greater challenge can always downgrade their trapping skill,

Well I can't. My current chap started with 0 in all skills, survived on getting catches with 0% trapping and active hunting by cornering big game. Later he got trapping to 15% and trapped 8/9 wolves. With which I'm totally fine with, except for the wolf part.

not set as many traps or not set them in areas where reindeer were just spotted,

It kinda breaks the game if you start avoiding to do stuff just because its too easy. But I do it and I have to do it currently in urw, which diminishes the game experience. Really simple example is being skilled in fishing.

or perhaps redistribute some of the wealth of meat and furs to a local "adopted" village which you could roleplay as your home village.

True. I refer to previous though. And urw villagers don't seem to make me feel at home.

There are many ways to make this game more challenging but only so many paths to a stable existence.

Spoiler: Not true by game mechanics • show

I feel exactly opposite. What you said is true when forcing roleplaying on players. Not true by game mechanics.

Even completely 'zeroed'-skill start character starting with injuries can still corner big game and use fences to their advantage. They can't fish for living, but trapping still works. Which I do not complain about.

Using game mechanics it's far simpler to make the game easier: start with a grandmaster archer Owl-tribes(wo)man and most encounters end in a kill if you so wish. Fishing, trading, agriculture, ready-made trap fence, etc, etc. I admit, not as much diversity than using imagination to make role-playing rules for oneself. But we should be discussing the actual game play and mechanics, not house rules.

With my own character, I've honestly started to lose interest after getting robbed and not having any luck with trapping, since it means grinding through a winter in a 1 x 1 cabin until I can work back up to my original plan of trading for reindeer to do something other than the typical build cabin and settle path.

Spoiler: I understand • show

I well understand not wanting to do all that grinding again. Feeling probably we all face when a long-time character dies unexpectedly.

Alas, this is one of those games where rage-quitting and other, milder expressions of frustration are not unheard of. This is largely due to the
involvement, permadeath and the time and effort this game requires of players to attain certain goals.

But I feel these things add to the incredible, emergent depth of this unusual game. And one can always resort to save scumming if they want.

Last minute addition to @Bert Preast:
I agree in principle, but trapping is the only viable option to urw survival in some spesific situations, so I would retain the ability of catching at least small food game like birds and hares effectively using traps. Maybe not small predators very often.

[MrMotorhead]

I enjoyed reading the ideas for improving trapping.  Instead of saying nerf or buff, I would like to see some additional realism added to trapping.  I realize that the OP mostly talked about pit traps which are used with a fence.  My trapping experience mostly involves deadfall traps.

• Traps should not be triggered just by an animal entering the tile, with the exception of pit traps and possibly loop snares.  When an animal tries taking the bait, the trap should have a chance to trigger.  A triggered trap should have a chance to hurt and/or capture the animal.
• Traps should not last forever.  This could be modeled by them having a chance to trigger after a few days have passed.  Perhaps a new action could be added to replace the traditional kick and reset, (s)kill t(r)apping (i)nspect as a convenience to offset the additional work required.  Baits already spoil but they should probably diminish over time as they are consumed by insects.
• Inspecting a trap which failed should give the character a chance to increase their trapping skill.  This could also give the player some feedback on why the trap failed and a hint about how to proceed.
• Animals encountering wrong sized traps might steal the bait.  A lynx or wolf could probably escape from a paw board trap, but a bear would certainly knock it over and have a free meal.  A fox or other small predator might be able to steal bait from a larger deadfall trap without triggering it.
• Some animals could learn over time and become trap shy or to follow your character around to steal your baits.  It seems like ravens do this already, I always seem to encounter them at my trapping sites.  Imagine a lynx that found a grouse that had been captured by a loop snare. This would encourage some problem solving and lead to great satisfaction when you finally bag that pesky critter.
• Loop snares should require a tree nearby, possibly a bush, that would provide the tension.
• Scattering additional bait could improve the chance of attracting animals.