Question for Sami

[Twezzk]

Hi everyone.i first want to say im sorry for my bad english.
I know players dont know answer to this question so this question is directed to Sami.

I have heard that there was a possibility to marry and have children but it has been removed because it wasnt very detailed or something like that.

I think that adding marrige to the game is crucial as i dont see (like many other players) the point to living and and getting old without offspring,so i think that is the part of the game that should be developed first,as i perssonaly lose interest in playing my 2 year gameplay.

The main question to Sami is when will the next update come out(or the update that will contain marrige and children).if you can tell me approxametly when the update will come winter,summer,2018,2019?
Lie for a month,two or three.just dont tell me "we are working on it" or "it will come out soon"

Lots of suport,UNREAL WORLD,a great game!!!!!!!!

[Erkka]

Hello there,

I'm sorry to say but the reality is that there is no exact answer to your question. Development takes the time it takes, and at the moment it is nearly impossible to say if a version with marriage and children will be released in summer 2018 or in winter 2020 - that depends on so many unpredictable factors so that the only honest thing to do is not to predict. I mean, this is not because Sami doesn't want to tell - this is because Sami doesn't know, and he only can tell things he knows.

So, okay, instead of saying "we are working on it", I will say: It is on the development list.

[Twezzk]

At least tell me is it a priority (among the first thing that will come out new)?

[PALU]

It's probably not on the active development horizon. UrW has been in development for a couple of decades, so it might be as much time left before it's implemented. It very much depends on where Sami spends his development efforts, and the current emphasis is mainly on the magic. UrW is very much a game you can play for a year or two, make a pause for 5 years, and then return to with new appetite to find that new features to explore have been implemented in the mean time.

It can also be noted that there are probably very few people who play their characters for 17+ years so that they could have had "adult" offspring. This means you could potentially start a family, but any children would be unlikely to be adult when your character expires, so if a generational feature would be introduced it would probably have to be able to skip a number of years, which would require some kind of logic to advance the world (which should include repopulating village animal stocks, at the least, and probably replace some of all those villagers who died fighting robbers with your ex character as well).

[Twezzk]

Development is focused on magic?What magic?
I see the game very realistic beucase it is.but if i see a ghost or a spirit talking to me the game would be far from realistic.ok i figure out spirit thanking you in a way of giving you more food or sucess in hunting but i wouldnt want to see them nor talk to them (mabye something like a dream could be ok)
I personaly dont like spirits and magic.i dont see and feel that when i sacrifice something that the spirits  actualy  help me but that myself (my character) feels more comfortable and more self confident and that that is the result in his sucess.

Adding magic (that can be seen pyscical or talked to) would make this realistic simulator into a fairy tale game.(this is my personal  opinion dont mean to insult the developers or anyone).

If you ask me dont add magic!!!!!

[PALU]

What version have you been playing? Magic has been in the game for a long time (longer than I've played it, although that's just a couple of years), although the latest and next set of releases have revamped the magic system.

We are not talking fireballs here, but magic based on Finnish folklore, where effects are subtle or possible wholly imaginary (various rituals for better fishing luck, for instance), although some seem to actually work (ritual for getting certain thieves to confess, for instance).
The latest set of releases saw a rework of the old magic system into a new one, and also introduced embodied spirits. The current set of spirits are the spirits of the water and forest maidens, while the spirits of the forest are introduced in the next one.
The forest maiden is somewhat similar to the Scandinavian 'huldra' but isn't a wholly malignant creature as the Scandinavian counterpart.

Edit:
What's the point of double posting the above as a new thread? It only serves to annoy people.

[Zalzany]

I get the "magic," and yeah that should be next on the list since its already got time in it. But I can't lie I bought this a year ago heck longer then that when it was new on steam and expected that feature to be in the pipe, the marriage one that is. I am not saying make promises but I really intrested in well is this even a priority? Not asking for a roadmap, just how long as get marred be on the list? And is it even something you and Elk think about, or just somehting that would be neat like 5 years from now to see in one day?

I mean you guys are getting new blood now, and I recruited like 6 people since I started playing my copy last weekend, after rage quit when it was new on steam to not getting it. Anyways I thought them all to play using discord and all of us doing a new start at once, made it eaiser as their little spirit guide to go "oh yeah I forget, hit f5 to see the tutorial info again," or "don't forget to do your incantations that are fitting when you can to make the gods like you more, not sure if its legit but seems to effect my luck when I pay the gods more notice." Like that one was after my 8th try to fish food and not getting jack but like 2 roaches lol.

But the point is I know a lot that liek this game, and they would love to see a spouse at the campsite waiting for them, or to follow with them. Like most of us were hardcore into Guild 2, or CK2, in effect I pouched 4 of them from the new CK2 expansion this week to play and talking them into supporting the devs and trading their free copy for a steam one.

[Sami]

Hmm, what to say here. I strangely feel like having to defend myself in a strange position where there is no need to defend at all.

Those who have followed the game for a long time do know that I very rarely speak of this or that being a priority before I'm actually started to work on said features.
One reason being that there are thousands of people with thousands of opinions what is the next hot feature that should be added next.
And another reason being that my creative process with the game is actually kind of chaotic and flexible.

Honestly, I can't say when marriage will be added. You can poke and push but I still do not know. What I know that it's a big thing to add if made properly. And also, as we once had it in the game, I feel that it is not that one big thing missing from the game.
Should we poll about its' priority preference among players? (We can do that)

[phoenixshenanigans]

Should we poll about its' priority preference among players? (We can do that)

I can only speak for myself here, but I would be very glad for me and others to get that chance to participate.

[Sami]

Should we poll about its' priority preference among players? (We can do that)

I can only speak for myself here, but I would be very glad for me and others to get that chance to participate.

One vote is enough for me to set up the poll Coming up in a few minutes.

[caius]

I have a few comments on the marriage poll and incorporating marriage into URW.  Others can comment on the role-playing nature of an NPC spouse or the ability to have children and have a multi-generational URW experience.  But I am reducing the arguments to two options for incorporating a NPC spouse: 1) the Resource Drain NPC Spouse, or 2) the Resource Generator NPC Spouse.  These options might be considered over simplifications (they are mechanistically not mutually exclusive). 

Option 1: The Resource Drain
For this option, a NPC spouse becomes a drain on player resources.  First, the spouse must be wooed and courted with furs, tools, weapons, valuables, etc.  In this option, a significant expenditure of player time is given to attract and then obtain a spouse.  The "cost" of a spouse would then be proportional to the perceived "value" of that spouse.  In this scenario, the spouse becomes a status symbol for the player through their ability to attract the "best".  It could be even that the spouse gives the player increasingly difficult quests as they become more involved along the wooing path.  Maybe there are differences between an in-culture marriage versus an out-of-culture marriage?

Second, after a marriage ceremony, the spouse must be provided for.  In this option, the NPC spouse is a bystander that consumes the player's food, clothes, tools, and weapons (maybe also armor, cords, bandages, bowls, etc.).  The player must spend time ensuring the spouse is sufficiently provided for so they stay committed to the marriage and alive.  In this option, a NPC spouse likely functions like current NPC villagers.  They wander around a specific location or follow the player around, but have limited utility.

The entire purpose of a resource drain NPC spouse is to add a monumental achievement to the URW experience.  That is, the player can not only provide for them-self, but they can attract and maintain the NPC spouse as a status symbol.  The resource drain NPC spouse then would "unlock" PALU's generational feature...

It can also be noted that there are probably very few people who play their characters for 17+ years so that they could have had "adult" offspring. This means you could potentially start a family, but any children would be unlikely to be adult when your character expires, so if a generational feature would be introduced it would probably have to be able to skip a number of years, which would require some kind of logic to advance the world (which should include repopulating village animal stocks, at the least, and probably replace some of all those villagers who died fighting robbers with your ex character as well).

Option 2: The Resource Generator
For this option, a NPC spouse would need to function differently than other villager or companion NPCs.  The NPC spouse in this scenario would need to be a productive member to contribute to living in URW.  For example, the resource generator NPC spouse would need to actually engage in meaningful labor around a settlement or while on a hunt.  This means they would need to accept and execute commands that take advantage of skills.  A resource generator NPC spouse is likely more accurate (they help contribute to life), but much more difficult to develop.  This option could also lead to players gaming the system or to unexpected results (or danger to the NPC spouse) due to poorly issues commands and limitations of the AI. 

A wooing process would need to take place.  However, while a resource drain NPC spouse would be a status symbol, a resource generator NPC spouse would be valued to complement the player.  For example, if a player is unskilled in something, woo a resource generator NPC spouse to compensate so they can perform those skills for you.

Once the courtship is completed, the resource generator NPC spouse would need to be functionally helpful to a player.  For example, if a player provides the necessary items (tools, weapons, seeds, pots, cords, etc.) and key instructions (location of a field to prepare/tend, trap fence to monitor, materials to process, etc.), the resource generator NPC spouse could process through a que of instructions.  For example, a resource generating NPC spouse could contribute to agriculture, hideworking, fishing, food preparation (smoking, salting, drying meat or making flatbread, stews, grinding flour, etc.), hunting, building, monitoring a trap fence, checking traps, making clothes, tools, or weapons, etc..  A resource generator NPC spouse would need to have skills that would affect their ability to perform all of these actions/functions. 

The entire purpose of a resource generator NPC spouse would be to expand a players skills set, provide a companion in shared activities, and/or help reduce the tedium that can occur when surviving in URW (i.e. division of labor).   I can imagine scenarios where the resource generator NPC spouse...

• prepares the soil, plants seeds, harvests crops, threshes for grain/seeds, grinds flour
• skins a carcass, cleans the skin, tans furs and leather
• butchers and smoke the meat or cooks any of the other food recipes
• prepares logs, blocks of wood, boards, etc.
• builds a wooden building or kota if the player outlines the walls and doors
• follows a circuit of traps, or a trap fence, to collect the trapped animals, reset the traps
• being sent out into a delineated geography and asked to harvest all the berries or herbs of a given type
• wanders a geographical area to actively hunt
• joins the player and sets traps in a designated place
• joins the player on an active hunt
• follows the player to a village to trade and carry items
• etc.

I've said too much...

Option 1 would be easier and provide for "end game" objectives.
Option 2 would require the player to spend a great deal of time managing the NPC spouse. 

[Sami]

Caius posts good generic ideas, and we have tested them already quite some time ago.
I mean, would you believe that we have pondered marriage in the game a lot.

Back in 2002, we introduced wives somewhat in the manner of resource generator - resource drain, and slow process.
What didn't the next year, or in 2004, or in 2005, was that we couldn't find any more big task that would have a longer lifespan of featured enjoyment than marriage.
[If we exaggerate, for some who find there's nothing more to do in the game than eat, it could turn into situation where there's nothing more to do than eat and feed one's wife.]

Well, here's snippet from 2002 news.txt, the system was pinpointed like this. It still wasn't holy grail, and after some years I found it all too sloppy.

Code: [Select]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
version: 2.70
released: Dec-14-2002

- added possibility to get a wife

...
       * It takes some time to  get  her  interested.  You
         must be a known person in the village where  your
         sweetheart lives,  so  remember  to  visit  there
         pretty often.
       * It all starts by talking with a girl. You can ask
         her some directions or anything at  all  to  make
         a contact. After you get to know each other a bit
         you can occasionally greet her or have  a  little
         chat with no particular reason. You know...
       * You'll notice when the girl gets interested.
       * Women love gifts, so be sure  to  give   valuable
         items to your sweetheart. (There's finally a good
         use for anklets and necklaces) You propably  know
         that  women like   expensive  furs  and beautiful
         clothes more than weapons and tools.
       * Talk to the girl a lot,  leave  the  village  and
         come back after a while, let  her  miss  you  for
         awhile, then return and surprise her with a  gift
         and so on...
         Do this for days, weeks or months -  whatever  it
         takes. Patience is  good.  If  you  think  things
         aren't going fast enough you may try to give  her
         more and more gits. Listen to her -  you'll  then
         know where you are going.
       So what's so special about  a wife  then?  If  love
       doesn't count there's still something left;
       If  you are wounded or suffer from a disease, every
       night slept with your  beloved  one  improves  your
       healing rate. So it's a good idea to  come home  to
       rest with your wife if you've got hurt  during your
       adventures.
         Cookery made with your wife is twice as fast  as
       alone and you'll make better meals  too.  So  it's
       very reasonable  to come home to your wife  afer a
       succesfull hunt, and prepare the prey together.
          Wife can be told to stay at the certain place.
       Usual procedure is to tell your wife to wait  for
       you, at your cottage for example,  when   you  go
       hunting or on a dangerous expedition. Chat option
       'Greet' is used to tell your wife to  stay  where
       you are or to walk with you.
          After you've got  yourself  a  wife  your  main
       objective as a man is to  keep  her  fed.  If  you
       leave her alone without food for a long  time  you
       can be sure she'll be gone when you come back.  So
       always remember to give her enough food  when  you
       are going away for days.


[Seddrik]

My Kaumo is lonely.



Nuff said.   

[Helldiver]

Caius breaks it down really well, I thought, especially when it comes to how such a question would present from a programming perspective.

Regarding that the question of marriage keeps coming up, I think there is a tendency for excited newbie players to overestimate how much any single feature will improve gameplay, especially if that feature is still just in the theoretical stages. (And I’ve been very guilty of jumping the gun myself in the past.) But if you read Caius’s breakdown, it becomes clear that in most scenarios, marriage will simply become another game feature governed by metrics, and it will add no more intrinsic depth to the game experience than you might get from exploring the in-game cooking options more deeply, or making fuller use of the already existing animal or companion system.

I’m not saying that it will make NO difference, but that it will be at least as much work and tweaking to implement as any other feature, while not being any more revolutionary than any other feature that could be added.

I’ve played CK2 a lot myself, and there are definitely some fun aspects of the marriage and family system in that game. However, I for one would be very sad to see URW move down the same path. There’s something very mercenary and Machiavellian about how relationships work in that game... which is fun in its own way and works for CK2 because it fits with the concept of the whole game, to treat human beings like symbols and chess pieces, and determine the fate of millions without having to think about the consequences befalling each individual. But that’s not the vibe I get from Unreal World, because it’s a game I play for pleasure, not distraction. I feel attached to it because in the Unreal World I feel like there’s room for attachments to breathe and exist, rather than every ounce of emotion and motivation just being directed towards a predetermined goal or victory. If a game starts just being constantly about the thrill of the chase, without variance or surprises or even the opportunity to contemplate why I chase, that’s when ennui sets in and the game stops being fulfilling.

It’s like that with simulating relationships too, in that while I’m not opposed to the basic idea, I have my share of misgivings about the implementation. The point of having spouses and partners in real life isn’t just as a warm body or someone to do their share of the chores, or as (pardon the phrasing, but that’s really how it’s depicted in games like CK2) breeding machines. Even the people who are asking for this change right here and now, a program-based solution like the one they are proposing is not necessarily going to effectively fill their want, deep down... and especially not within the time frame they are asking for.

I dunno. I am personally of the opinion that it’s far better to be lonely than in an unfulfilling relationship, so maybe it’s that attitude carrying into my gaming style. The only thing that might get me to change my mind is if Sami himself found a way to integrate that approach into the overall style of the game. And it’s happened before... I used to be skeptical about how a magic system would work in URW, but the newer quest-related gameplay, getting to interact with spirits, and in general being shown-not-told the ancient Pagan worldview is a great development in the game, and the one that made me fall in love with it all over again.

Ultimately it comes down to vision, and one of the best things about this game is how much work the developers put into realizing their unique one. I want to echo many of the opinions given in the other thread (the poll thread) and say that the consistency shown by Sami and Erkka in developing this world is what keeps me sticking with this game, like how a person who is quietly self-confident and seems to know their own mind (even if it means we sometimes disagree) is usually more attractive than someone who acts like a weathercock.