Topic: BAC Mod Weaving yardage.  (Read 13447 times)


favomancer

« on: June 25, 2023, 07:51:09 PM »
Now, for balance and sanity reasons this probably shouldn't be changed, but I happen to be a spinner and weaver IRL, and I've some thoughts on the yardage of thread used in weaving.

Weavers calculate the yardage of thread based on several different factors: the length of a given piece of fabric, the width of a given piece of fabric, its sett (how many threads per inch), and lastly shrinkage factor.

Shrinkage comes into play because threads are stretched to have them woven, and when you take them off the loom their elasticity shrinks back in. Normally shrinkage, depending on the fiber, is about 10% (with wool especially).

There's also the header and the foot of the fabric, which is loom waste. You find especially little loom waste with the warp-weighted looms in the BAC mod, and with backstrap looms, so I'm not too concerned about this, but typical loom waste for a rigid heddle loom is about 12 to 18 inches, and loom waste for a jack, countermarch, or counterbalance loom is about 24 to 36 inches.

The sett depends on how thick or thin the threads are. In general most fish yarn (cotton yarn used for warp in Scandinavian rug weaving) weaves up at about 12 ends per inch. So that's 12 threads of warp, + 12 threads of weft, for 24 threads per square inch.

Multiply that by the length and width of a given piece of fabric — let's say we're weaving 2ft by 4ft sections here.

That's 1152 square inches, multiplied by the threads per square inch, + 10 percent for shrinkage. That gives you 2534.4 ft of thread required, without calculating loom waste OR the amount of clothing you need for a garment.

I'm honestly not sure anyone would continue spinning and weaving using BAC if you actually did change the numbers to be accurate to RL weaving, though. But it's just a little curiosity fact stuff that I happen to specialize in.

Plotinus

« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2023, 12:35:43 PM »
This is great! It should take months and a lot of labour to make a garment, that'd be historically accurate.

favomancer

« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2023, 02:54:46 PM »
This is great! It should take months and a lot of labour to make a garment, that'd be historically accurate.

12 ends per inch is what you get out of a rigid heddle loom — backstraps and warp-weighted looms, as well as contemporary floor looms, go ridiculously fine and at the upper limit it's about whether you want fine threads catching on the roughness of your normal human skin or not.

JP_Finn

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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2023, 07:19:50 AM »
I read some years ago how vikings needed more pastures, to raise more sheep, to get wool, to nalbind sails and clothes.
So the sheer amount of yarn needed to make clothing doesn't really surprise much. But yeah, that's a LOT of yarn for 8sq ft!

favomancer

« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2023, 04:58:47 PM »
Moreover if you want to talk spinning — I'm actually more of a spinner than a weaver because I spend a lot of time knitting my output. I use a spinning wheel. The spinning wheel was a technology that increased the efficiency of spinning a fiber into thread by more than an order of magnitude. I can spin with a spindle, and for very specific technical tasks it's preferable.

eg: spinning very delicate threads is easier on a drop spindle than on a spinning wheel.

Now, on how the rhythms of spinning and weaving fit into agricultural life around the Iron Age and after, into the pre-industrial revolution: making yardage was a family affair. The retting and shearing could be done by anyone. Carding and combing were simple tasks that you could delegate to children. After that, the women and older girls would spin the thread. Spinning was often saved for a winter task — you didn't need much light to do it competently.

Weaving, on the other hand, was a summer task — the kind of thing you could use the long daylight hours to do. This is because if you slip up in your weaving you can threaten the entire structural integrity of the cloth.

Moreover, what people value in weaving and spinning then and now is completely different. Back before the industrial production of cloth, girls and women were trained extensively to turn out fine, delicate handspuns. I have seen a delicate piece of linen cloth dated to the antebellum era of the US that was translucent, woven as a sampler to show off a young lady's skills. Consistency and regularity were vital.

Such consistency and delicacy was heavily devalued with factories turning out stuff, so nowadays consumers prefer handwovens and handspuns that reflect a slight human irregularity in the touch, or a method of spinning and plying that machines cannot replicate.

So back in the era of UnReal World, a young woman who could spin fine thread and weave fine cloth would be considered extremely marriageable, because if she was swift and efficient at it, and also knew how to dye cloth appealing colors, she could put some of her spare cloth on the market because it was ULTRA-VALUABLE.

As for historical dye plants: people used all kinds of dyeherbs. Woad for blue, onion skins or dyers' chamomile (Anthemis tinctoria) for yellow, madder root for red. Note that this is a very, very short list. Most of these natural dyes require a mordant, or a metal salt, to make sure the colors chemically bond to the fabric. Some of the mordants used are pretty harmless — alum, for example, is used to mordant some colors, but too much of it will leave wool and other protein fibers with a weird sticky texture. Other mordants are shit you need chemical disposal facilities to get rid of.

As a contemporary fiber crafter, I use acid dyes, which bond to protein fibers effortlessly with the addition of citric acid or vinegar.

A large amount of the colonization of Mexico by the Spanish was driven by a consumer craze for lightfast intense red dye, which was derived from the cochineal insect that fed on prickly pear cacti. Similarly, both indigo and cotton drove chattel slavery to a great extent (although not as great as the consumer desire for sugar.)

(I know most of this stuff because my university education is on theatrical costume production — but I was already spinning and weaving before I became a costume technician, and my gateway craft was knitting.)

Matti-patti

« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2023, 03:53:25 PM »
As for historical dye plants: people used all kinds of dyeherbs. Woad for blue, onion skins or dyers' chamomile (Anthemis tinctoria) for yellow, madder root for red. Note that this is a very, very short list. Most of these natural dyes require a mordant, or a metal salt, to make sure the colors chemically bond to the fabric. Some of the mordants used are pretty harmless — alum, for example, is used to mordant some colors, but too much of it will leave wool and other protein fibers with a weird sticky texture. Other mordants are shit you need chemical disposal facilities to get rid of.

As a contemporary fiber crafter, I use acid dyes, which bond to protein fibers effortlessly with the addition of citric acid or vinegar.


In specifically Finnish usage, blue, black, red and brown are attested in archaeological record (plus a few oddities like violet). Yellow and green are absent, possibly because they were seen as too plebeian for the archaeological sample (funeral clothing) rather than being actually absent. Madder, onions and possibly woad did not exist in Finland (woad may have in the in-game Islander territory, but was also likely an import item, generally seen as the fanciest dye). Reds and browns were made from tree bark (e.g. alder) being soaked in birch lye solution, which could be left to "ferment" for months to produce different shades.

Brygun

« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2023, 12:42:04 AM »
Howdy, Brygun of BAC here.

Interesting real world info there. Thanks.

I hadn't thought of weaving as a summer for light issue. As a Canadian I've heard pioneer tales of indoor crafts by the firelight.

With how dark it has gotten on the character Calle in winter with no sun and no moon I could see that being an issue. Some times it was so dark in the game he couldn't put wood into his oven-place because "you can only push items to where you can see".

>>>

In turns of game code:

= The weaving section came from one of the contributors. Its been around many years so I think who made it initially is either Bouidda or Rain? There are notes in the diy for Textilecraft that refer to management for new menus for UrW 3.70.

= The mod system hasn't allowed restarting craft tasks. This has had huge implementations in the time to make things. Saami is talking about adding restarts which could match real world time much better.

= Currently the most one recipe can be set for is 6h to 8h. The issue isn't going to be obvious. It's about starvation! During the crafting time you can't do anything else. So your hunger and thirst will go up and up and up. Also low skill results will take longer so 6-8 hours can become 10-12. Not eating for 12 hours can start to accumulate starving percent. There is also the fatigue and risk of being attacked while being fatigued.

= Do have some idea of taking multiple days the modder can code in multiple steps and repeat steps. Step 1 before Step 2 before Step 3 and so on. Thus you can build up the time needed with pauses to eat, drink, rest and sleep.

= Now add in the limited menu space. Each unique step is a separate recipe. I believe the weaving is ~3 steps on the loom. Thus the most it can simulate is needing 3 days to weave a piece of size X.

= Each recipe can only output one type of thing. It an output several of that but its only one type, like making 2 wooden cups at once.

= Another modder method is what I did with some of the complex iron working where you need a few iron shapes and few of this before doing a piece. So it works out as 2 of Step 1 + 2 of Step 2 + Step 3. This gives 5 days of work for 3 menu items. You can add in other small parts too but each small part is a recipe thus a menu space.




Matti-patti

« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2023, 12:55:49 PM »

I hadn't thought of weaving as a summer for light issue. As a Canadian I've heard pioneer tales of indoor crafts by the firelight.

With how dark it has gotten on the character Calle in winter with no sun and no moon I could see that being an issue. Some times it was so dark in the game he couldn't put wood into his oven-place because "you can only push items to where you can see".

It does make quite a bit sense especially in the Finnish/in-game context. The fireplace depicted in the game in unvented, you'd get carbon monoxide poisoning if you stayed in the room in non-prone position. Even during winter it was only lit once a day in the morning and then continued to heat the house through the rest of the day via the retained heat. To my understanding North American pioneers by contrast tended to use open, vented fireplaces, which could be used to provide light.

There were no oil laps or candles either, burning wood chips were the sole light source.

Brygun

« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2023, 01:11:44 AM »
There were no oil laps or candles either, burning wood chips were the sole light source.

In Calle's dark deep winter days it did make we wonder about light sources. Game mechanics still take starting a fire and game mechanics for start a fire inside a cabin is a no-no unless in the fireplace, which takes a large quantity.

There are torches but you need a fire to light them, which you would have to do outside somewhere.

In the game if you can't see to the next tile you can't start a fire anyway (AFAIK).

Did the medieval Finns really not have oil lamps or fat lamps? Using the blubber of seals?


« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 05:07:47 AM by Brygun »

Brygun

« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2023, 05:10:08 AM »
Correcting myself:

You can start a fire in an unseen tile next to you.

You can't push stuff that way though.

You can drop the firewood then step back and start the fire.

What isn't possible is pushing into a tile you can't see

Thus you can't load an ovenplace with wood in the deepest dark. If you plan ahead you could load the oven before hand. Otherwise go outside, drop branches, step back, start a fire then light a torch. Using the torch come back in to load the oven.

Matti-patti

« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2023, 11:30:04 AM »
There were no oil laps or candles either, burning wood chips were the sole light source.
Did the medieval Finns really not have oil lamps or fat lamps? Using the blubber of seals?

At least not as part of regular peoples' household lighting, which continued to use these thin pulled wood chips all the way to 19th century. Supposedly they burned at rather measured rate, so not as silly as it might sound.

The wood chip production is depicted here (for sake of basket weaving, but same thing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMziRumSfw