Remove some armor and weapons.

[MHB]

Some of the items in the game seem far-fetched in the setting of URW, i think it would be more coherent if some armor and weapons were removed from the game.

Specifically: Iron Coudes, Iron Kneecops, Leather Cuirass and all two handed swords.

[Plasmator94]

Some of the items in the game seem far-fetched in the setting of URW, i think it would be more coherent if some armor and weapons were removed from the game.

Specifically: Iron Coudes, Iron Kneecops, Leather Cuirass and all two handed swords.

I completely agree. I think this topic need more space here!

The weapons of URW is very wierd and far from historical accurate, as the game is set in Iron Age Finland, that mean nothing, but I suppose the game is setted in early medieval times \ late nordic iron age(roughly from 8th to 11h)

Weapon i think shoul de changed or removed:

- 2-handed swords: apperead in europe only around 15th-16th century

- Bastardsword: another type of sword dated around 15th century

- Scimitar: shoud be more accurate to use the name saber, used by eastern cultures like nomadic peoples of the steppes and by the Byzantines in later times. The scimitar was a more curved blade used moslty by arabs as an evolution of the saber, around 9th. The scimitar started to be know in europe from 14th-15th

- Shortsword: is not that bad, but should make more sense to call it skramaseax and to remove the guard, since shortswrod where not used in northen europe until 15th century. Before we used sword (petersen type for example) with lenght roughly between 70 and 100 cm in length

- The CROSSBOW?!? I don't have really sources about it, I know there where primitive crossbow in roman and greek armies in the past, but far as I know, in early medieval northen-central europe, crossbow didn't exist.

- Battleaxe: it's just fine, even if I'm not sure that finnish used two-handed axe in battle. I know some rus and in general slavic cultures used two handed axe, as well romphaia as a two handed polearm to swing, but honestly i think was not a battle weapon, but just two handed axes for timberwork, trasfromed in war weapons. The only I'm sure were scandinavian population that used the famished dane axe, and some druzina. The use in battle was not that easy, and people usually prefer to use a shield with a shorter axe

- shield: not an error, since roundshield made of boards where very common at the time, but would be nice to add more primitive shield, used also by a lot of slavic cultures. A roundshield is not such a cheap equipment as a lot of people can think: you need fine boards to make it, some leather to reinforce the border, and a steel shield boss. In the past, the poor warriors used braided wicker shields, that can be a nice addiction



- Absolutely agree about kneekops, since first we see in europe are dated around 10th in byzantine cataphract, and later in almost all armies in europe around 14th

- Leather lamellar cuirass, i think work just fine, even if there is no evidence for any lamellar being worn by Scandinavian and Baltic cultures during the early medieval period and iron age. But was already used but some eastern cultures (Njerpez), and it is easy to think that warriors who could not afford steel armor, would have used leather instead (boiled in beeswax), which was much cheaper

[MHB]

- The CROSSBOW?!? I don't have really sources about it, I know there where primitive crossbow in roman and greek armies in the past, but far as I know, in early medieval northen-central europe, crossbow didn't exist.

Joukahainen's Revenge 1897 has Joukahainen wielding a crossbow, and i think they are mentioned in the Kalevala. (Ive only read a translation so im not sure)

- Battleaxe: it's just fine, even if I'm not sure that finnish used two-handed axe in battle. I know some rus and in general slavic cultures used two handed axe, as well romphaia as a two handed polearm to swing, but honestly i think was not a battle weapon, but just two handed axes for timberwork, trasfromed in war weapons. The only I'm sure were scandinavian population that used the famished dane axe, and some druzina. The use in battle was not that easy, and people usually prefer to use a shield with a shorter axe

There seems to have been a display of a two handed axe looking very similar to a dane axe at Pukkisaari Iron Age Village. Pukkisaari is also the site where images for the homestead is taken and some of the portraits seem to be from reenactors that have visited the site.

- Leather lamellar cuirass, i think work just fine, even if there is no evidence for any lamellar being worn by Scandinavian and Baltic cultures during the early medieval period and iron age. But was already used but some eastern cultures (Njerpez), and it is easy to think that warriors who could not afford steel armor, would have used leather instead (boiled in beeswax), which was much cheaper

I agree that lamellar is fine, be it leather or metal. I was referring to the leather cuirass that the player was able to make, which isnt specified as lamellar.

[Plasmator94]

There seems to have been a display of a two handed axe looking very similar to a dane axe at Pukkisaari Iron Age Village. Pukkisaari is also the site where images for the homestead is taken and some of the portraits seem to be from reenactors that have visited the site.

Thanks you for these info! Very interesting...  I will dig a bit Anyway I think two-handed axes are just fine in URW, and fit the area and period

I agree that lamellar is fine, be it leather or metal. I was referring to the leather cuirass that the player was able to make, which isnt specified as lamellar.

yeah leather cuirass sound rough, sound like a thick leather apron. lamellar would me more accurate

[MHB]

Thanks you for these info! Very interesting...  I will dig a bit Anyway I think two-handed axes are just fine in URW, and fit the area and period

Yeah i definitely agree with you. 

As well with all your other points, they're very insightful.

[Sami]

Some of the items in the game seem far-fetched in the setting of URW, i think it would be more coherent if some armor and weapons were removed from the game.

Specifically: Iron Coudes, Iron Kneecops, Leather Cuirass and all two handed swords.

Yep, there are some of those leftovers, and now that we're working on blacksmith NPCs there's a natural place for cleaning up. For the swords we could basically go with simple classification of shortsword and longsword alone, giving enough difference - and indeed remove the two-handed ones.
The sword terminology is a bit problematic, as even the longsword term would surely bring most of the players in mind something else than, say, "Z-type sword in Petersen typology with edged portion of the blade longer than 70 cm".
But if we cut the swords down to only short and long, I kind of already hear somebody pointing out that there can't be only two types of swords in the world. But we surely can't go for "Sword with X type hilt and 67 cm long blade" item names either. As there are no common names for the iron-age swords that people would immediately understand, we've allowed some generic but era-inaccurate swords remain in place for the sake of variety. But it bothers us too.

When it comes to coudes and kneecops, even though the terms are problematic, this kind of spot protections have been used around the game era elsewhere in the world. And many imported goods have found their way to foreign traders, from many places of the world. These are not local, nor locally produced armours. The same goes for cuirass - which name in a lack of better generic term - unfortunately brings to one's mind a medieval world.
So, in the game we have a door open that this and this kind of items may have found their way to the unreal world, through possible trade/raid routes.

[Plasmator94]

Yep, there are some of those leftovers, and now that we're working on blacksmith NPCs there's a natural place for cleaning up. For the swords we could basically go with simple classification of shortsword and longsword alone, giving enough difference - and indeed remove the two-handed ones.
The sword terminology is a bit problematic, as even the longsword term would surely bring most of the players in mind something else than, say, "Z-type sword in Petersen typology with edged portion of the blade longer than 70 cm".
But if we cut the swords down to only short and long, I kind of already hear somebody pointing out that there can't be only two types of swords in the world. But we surely can't go for "Sword with X type hilt and 67 cm long blade" item names either. As there are no common names for the iron-age swords that people would immediately understand, we've allowed some generic but era-inaccurate swords remain in place for the sake of variety. But it bothers us too.

When it comes to coudes and kneecops, even though the terms are problematic, this kind of spot protections have been used around the game era elsewhere in the world. And many imported goods have found their way to foreign traders, from many places of the world. These are not local, nor locally produced armours. The same goes for cuirass - which name in a lack of better generic term - unfortunately brings to one's mind a medieval world.
So, in the game we have a door open that this and this kind of items may have found their way to the unreal world, through possible trade/raid routes.

Thanks Sami for your quick reply! I'm absolutely with you as for merchants bringing goods from distant places, that was the case. I completely disagree with those who say "if there is no historical evidence, it means that it never existed". People tried what they found, and I'm sure many in the Baltic too saw, and sometimes used, lamellar armour. I'm a little more hesitant about shin-cops, the very first ones I've seen I found them on Byzantine finds, around the year 1000.

Perhaps for swords, you could think of a method like this: rather than dividing swords in terms of weight, length, type of guard etc, it could be done according to culture. The Baltic sword, while similar to the Viking sword, had a very different guard and pommel, with curled steel, instead of a single block of steel in the guard as in the Viking swords. Furthermore, the Baltic sword, in some cases, was found with a wider blade at the tip (we are talking about a single-edged sword and not a double-edged one like the Scandinavian one).

It could translate into the game like this (plus slightly different graphics)

Baltic sword
Being monofilament and slightly unbalanced, it could therefore have a big disadvantage for point attacks, and a considerable bonus for edge attacks. The guard, being wider and curled than other swords, could give a small bonus in parrying

Viking Sword
Double-edge, also excellent for lunging blows (although it was used more for slashing, just seeing its weight to understand it). Thus a more balanced blade, which can only be found from foreign merchants.


there are many different designs of swords, and many small regional differences in their manufacture and shape.

NPC's blacksmits are planned to make different weapons based on their culture?



A lovely baltic sword recostruction

Spoiler: show

[Erkka]

  I'm a little more hesitant about shin-cops, the very first ones I've seen I found them on Byzantine finds, around the year 1000.

The game is based on roughly 800 - 1200, and the Viking trade routes down the Russian rivers took all the way down to Byzantine, so I'd guess it is withing the frame of possibility that some instances of 1000 AD Byzantine items reached the shores of Finland before 1200 ended 

[Plasmator94]

  I'm a little more hesitant about shin-cops, the very first ones I've seen I found them on Byzantine finds, around the year 1000.

The game is based on roughly 800 - 1200, and the Viking trade routes down the Russian rivers took all the way down to Byzantine, so I'd guess it is withing the frame of possibility that some instances of 1000 AD Byzantine items reached the shores of Finland before 1200 ended 

I guess yes, even if was a rarity lot of money  for the varangians

Also metal vambrace where already know in rus armies (other than splinted steel vambraces, quite widespread in europe)

[MHB]

When it comes to coudes and kneecops, even though the terms are problematic, this kind of spot protections have been used around the game era elsewhere in the world. And many imported goods have found their way to foreign traders, from many places of the world. These are not local, nor locally produced armours. The same goes for cuirass - which name in a lack of better generic term - unfortunately brings to one's mind a medieval world.
So, in the game we have a door open that this and this kind of items may have found their way to the unreal world, through possible trade/raid routes.

The game is based on roughly 800 - 1200, and the Viking trade routes down the Russian rivers took all the way down to Byzantine, so I'd guess it is withing the frame of possibility that some instances of 1000 AD Byzantine items reached the shores of Finland before 1200 ended 

I dont really know that much about armor or weaponry but the pictures of coudes and kneecops ive found from western europe seem to start from around 1200 AD and is worn by crusaders or nobility who generally were alot richer than finns and considering the best helmet in the game is a spectacled helmet i find it even harder to believe that they were accessible. There could of course have been items from the eastern roman empire reaching finland, but i dont see how that would be different in terms of affordability.
However i dont think its impossible, just very unlikely.

The cuirass i was referring to is the one players can make.

[Sami]

Good discussion and suggestions, MHB and Plasmator94. Nice food for thoughts, and we'll be exploring all this along with blacksmith coding.

I just add a little remark here that in our opinion (too) many metal goods, swords especially, should be far more a rare than they currently are.
All the blacksmiths will produce culturally related items to the level of their expertise, and it's likely that (at least some) blacksmith NPCs are able to produce swords too.
In the long run the villages actually should get rid of valuable goods lying around in storehouses and available for trade, and eg. swords had to be ordered from a capable blacksmith or traded from (foreign) traders. This sort of rarity, however, is hard to accept by many players. As well, as the fact that not just anyone can forge themselves an usable sword, or even a knife.

[Plasmator94]

Good discussion and suggestions, MHB and Plasmator94. Nice food for thoughts, and we'll be exploring all this along with blacksmith coding.

I just add a little remark here that in our opinion (too) many metal goods, swords especially, should be far more a rare than they currently are.
All the blacksmiths will produce culturally related items to the level of their expertise, and it's likely that (at least some) blacksmith NPCs are able to produce swords too.
In the long run the villages actually should get rid of valuable goods lying around in storehouses and available for trade, and eg. swords had to be ordered from a capable blacksmith or traded from (foreign) traders. This sort of rarity, however, is hard to accept by many players. As well, as the fact that not just anyone can forge themselves an usable sword, or even a knife.

Sorry for my late reply. I totally agree about the (historically true) fact that there were not so much steel weapons at the time, or at least a sword. Get your hand on everyday steel tools like a knife (in early medieval scandinavia, for example, but as well in other places, a free man , the "Bondi", have always to carry his knife, because was the simbol of a free person) or a axe was quite easy, but get a sword... only a very rich warrior would have a sword, and probably, most of the time, a sword with poor metal. I don't know so much about finland, but in scandinavia, frankish swords were the most precious and were often ordered from great warriors (see the story of the legendary Ulfhbert).

About the fact that not everybody could be a blacksmith and know how to work with iron... that true, but I think in a game like URW, it's ok if someone want to be "the blacksmith" instead of the hunter, the carpenter or the potter... A lot of people here maked mod with smithing. But I see your point and I understand it

Anyway I get a try with all this stuff in this topic, and I've tried to make some historical weapons of the time, each one with their own slightly different attack value

From left to right: Bearded axe (skeggox), rus pick-axe, Norman sword, Skramasax (plain sword without guard and pommel), baltic sword, viking sword, and rus saber (there where a lot of straight sabers in rus armies, other than curved sabers)

I hope all this stuff can be good food for your development! Thanks again for your work guys, I love this game!

[Brygun]

My humble opinions

Sword reclassify: neat idea and touches on culture are good for a game that inspired me to learn real life bush crafting

Two handed swords leaving: Meh... not so sure on that.

Just because it wasn't common doesn't mean it couldn't exist. I do agree that the later Zheiwhander were specialized for the pike and shot era. However big swords could exist earlier. Would be curious on finding examples. I do accept they would be rare as most people don't have the sort of armor the two handers were needed for. That doesn't mean viking Big-gus didn't ask for a really big sword to chop with.

>>>

Armor: As Erkka reminded this 1000 - 1200 Ad so we ARE talking about the crusades era.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade
Some items for sale would be imported and those foreign traders certainly might touch on cultures with better armor.

When writing the BAC mod the work you need to do to make a dome for the top of helm, which some not all styles have, is the same as making a dome for elbows or knees. My real life brief venture into making armor for the SCA (re-enactments where we do hit each other) showed that. The elbows and knees are basically deep bowls with holes for the straps or ties. Helms were made in various ways one being to have dome top with side plates vs a series of plates mounted on VVVV bands with a small disc at top.

Likewise a metal shield boss for a round shield was very much in use during this and earlier periods. It is a metal bowl shape. Again if you can make a shield boss for your round shield you could make elbow and knee armor.

An argument for whether any body had the idea would need to take into account that if any prior culture, now including the Romans and Samaritans, might have made them which foreign traders might have brought even just the idea over.