Harvesting(edited:boiled down to harvesting, ignore redundant leather discus.)

[Dr.Hossa]

I edited the title, pls ignore the redundant discussion, basically this is about harvesting now(message #7)
https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5996.msg16433#msg16433


leather would be discussed in buoidda's thread: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5835.0.

As we are all recognizing, changes are coming and we are all more than looking forward to them! And it is of course, not of my interest to slow these things down.

But there are still some little itches, i cannot stop scraping on. None of these are game-breaking, but I think it is important to keep an eye on them, as a more complex game system will make it difficult to change them.
Because i am talking about basic(yet little) features that I would love to see being improved... I try to sum that up here, but feel free to add ideas if they match the topic...:

- Harvesting and agriculture:
That one is about controls.
It would be nice to have some kind of "harvesting mode", where the character automatically picks up the harvested ripe plants just as a part of the harvesting procedure.
At the time, it is quite painful to harvest because you have to harvest, then pick up the plants manually and chose the amount you want to pick up.
And with painful, i mean pain in my real hands...

- Animals eating
Gameplay.
I watched wild birds picking berries and predators killing prey, but other than that i have never seen an elk, reindeer, pig, cow, or sheep eating something besides my trap baits. It would be great if they actually graze and nibble on herbs, mushrooms, trees or saplings. And i see no reason why it shouldnt be possible to feed them, just like you do it with your dogs. Shouldnt be much of an issue to provide your reindeer flock with some twigs, saplings, leaves or whatever. Please correct me if i have been just too blind and they do eat by themselves already(?...)...

- leather
Gameplay.
First, the tanning process... de hair first? or first tan and dehair afterwards? i mix it up repeatedly... For newbies, i think it is really confusing. The reason is, when you dehair first, you dont get to see that information in middle-steps of the tanning process.(its just a tanning skin) So if you are unsure if you dehaired the skin(For example, because you are tanning multiple stuff and also furs of the same species) you have to dehair it again(which takes many days (10+) for big hides, to be sure it becomes leather. Otherwise you dont know the outcome. oh, ofcourse you must waste tanning material like fat or bark again.
For new players, who read that here: clean, dehair, tan. Little workaround: chose different sites for leather tanning than for your fur tanning.

Second, give it an actual use? leather clothing seems to be somewhat extremely underpowered. i think it should at least be a good trade between protection and weight penalty especially on warm days. At the time, it even takes a lot more work to aquire it, yet being inferior in all aspects to fur(ignoring the little point dmg advantage).
Even a very strong character will not chose the big penalty of the additional weight that comes with the little protection.
Everyone who has worn leather IRL knows that it is very comfortable, even feeling like a second skin which does not hinder movement much. at least regarding trousers, shoes and shirts. The actual "armour" items should be clumsier and heavier, but also with better protection(speaking of the cuirass, armguards and shinguards)
Perhaps resemble that aspect by reducing the weight?

and, what happened to the boots??...

[Buoidda]

Good suggestions overall. I have to comment, on behalf of and before Sami has the chance to, that he'd probably like to have these suggestions on separate threads in the future. That way its easier for all of us to keep the discussion focused and have topics that describe the content.

The leather part leads me to think you may have missed this discussion:  https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=5835.0. There was also another I started, about curing...

Very warmly support animals eating. I was going to suggest this too at some point.

On agriculture is nice too, though I rarely farm that much. But auto-pickup all mode would be useful. Also agriculture - it seems to me - to be too secure a living. No extreme weather / disease / pests spoiling crops and causing famine... Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't really tried to live on it.

[Roheline]

I second agriculture being a bit too secure/productive.

For fun/curiosity/extra pandemic food source I attempted to grow 100 square feet of barley this past spring/summer in a very fertile garden bed. It grew absolutely beautifully until about 1 month before harvest was due a windstorm flattened the whole patch, which then succumbed to some kind of fungal infection. I got 0 harvestable barley plants.

Probably the ancient Finns would have had crops better adapted to their climate than some random barley seeds off the internet, but it was still quite surprising/enlightening to not even have a single harvestable plant.

On the flip side, there is at least the influence of marauding animals in the game. I never actually saw him eat, but I had a badger wreak utter destruction on my crops with one character.

[Tom H]

Re: Animals eating- I've seen elk and badgers completely destroy my turnip fields (pretty much the only crops I ever plant). Would we want to have to grow a grain crop just to feed cows or reindeer through winter? 

Re: Leather- I recall when I started playing the game how I was excited to acquire leather armor bits. Then I learned about bear fur and started hunting that, instead. Meanwhile, I have characters with 50, even 100 pounds of bird leather for which I can conceive little use except as belts or ropes. How thick could it be? Anyway, perhaps we could make leather sleeping pads for keeping off the cold ground, or harnesses and load-bearing gear for our animals. I agree that leather could be buffed somehow to make it more valuable and useful in-game.

Re: Harvesting- It sounds like you're thinking about taking in your plots of tended fields. It might be awkward programming that when you include the villager's 'fields' or harvesting scattered herbs.

[Dr.Hossa]

Good suggestions overall. I have to comment, on behalf of and before Sami has the chance to, that he'd probably like to have these suggestions on separate threads in the future. That way its easier for all of us to keep the discussion focused and have topics that describe the content.

thanks and, Yeah, demn... sorry. Just read that "marathon" post from sami and got a picture of that. Sorry.
*Hitting myself 20 times with the vasta*

I looked at the leather post of yours, but i dont think its basically the same with my concerns. Of course i would like to have tanning overhauled as you suggested to make it more realistic. But i think perhaps(?) this time i speak on behalf of sami when i say that this can wait... Sure i can understand its more of an important thing for you if  you do things like that IRL.

But from a technical gameplay perspective i think it works fine, but should at least get the right description while tanning. that is my point.

Same with farming. Balance-wise i find it working good, perhaps must be nerfed, but thats not my concern. Mine is just a suggestion to get rid of the most hand-aching keyjockeyings. especially if you sit on a punt, you gotta press shift + g all the time... then chose amount and confirm.
i mean, honestly: i clear a little field of reeds, like 20 patches or so, and my hand hurts. and sometimes after a while i confuse and mix up the keys, because i jockey so fast. and i am not an extreme farmer-player...

i mean, in the end, everything you do in URW is much easier than it would be in real life. when i think about it; in a strange way, physical pain is some real-realistic consequence of living a farming lifestyle. hunters and nomads dont have knee problems... unless it's a bear ripping your leg off

@tom: yeah, they eat stuff from the player. but i'd like to be able to observe animals and learn which food they choose in the wild. perhaps this is highlighting what i meant.
i cannot get a grasp of what you mean regarding the harvesting... but i describe my problem again in this message earlier

[Buoidda]

I looked at the leather post of yours, but i dont think its basically the same with my concerns.

Oh I'm sorry. I was staring at this:

- leather
Gameplay.
First, the tanning process... de hair first? or first tan and dehair afterwards? i mix it up repeatedly... For newbies, i think it is really confusing. The reason is, when you dehair first, you dont get to see that information in middle-steps of the tanning process.(its just a tanning skin) So if you are unsure if you dehaired the skin(For example, because you are tanning multiple stuff and also furs of the same species) you have to dehair it again(which takes many days (10+) for big hides, to be sure it becomes leather. Otherwise you dont know the outcome. oh, ofcourse you must waste tanning material like fat or bark again.
For new players, who read that here: clean, dehair, tan. Little workaround: chose different sites for leather tanning than for your fur tanning.

My leather post was, I admit, a little comprehensive. But there was this conclusion:

My reasoning apart from what already been said:
a) one could instantly recognize which animal skins become leather and which fur
b) currently one cannot distinguish a dehaired "tanning elk skin" and a fur bearing "tanning elk skin" before the whole tanning process is finished

Now I'll answer the other part:

Second, give it an actual use? leather clothing seems to be somewhat extremely underpowered. i think it should at least be a good trade between protection and weight penalty especially on warm days. At the time, it even takes a lot more work to aquire it, yet being inferior in all aspects to fur(ignoring the little point dmg advantage).
Even a very strong character will not chose the big penalty of the additional weight that comes with the little protection.
Everyone who has worn leather IRL knows that it is very comfortable, even feeling like a second skin which does not hinder movement much. at least regarding trousers, shoes and shirts. The actual "armour" items should be clumsier and heavier, but also with better protection(speaking of the cuirass, armguards and shinguards)
Perhaps resemble that aspect by reducing the weight?

and, what happened to the boots??...

I agree that leather is too encumbering compared to fur. And if one aims to make protective leather pieces, certainly they could be made harder and thicker and even better than 'just' fur. And heavier. It's just the perceived anachronism that can be in the way.

Of course i would like to have tanning overhauled as you suggested to make it more realistic. But i think perhaps(?) this time i speak on behalf of sami when i say that this can wait... Sure i can understand its more of an important thing for you if  you do things like that IRL.

I'm glad you like them! Let me explain myself a bit, so you hopefully like them even more 

Speaking of overhaul, they are mostly aimed to make the game more playable, instead of realistic. I've made two suggestion threads on the subject: on terminology and curing. The terminology thread starter is long, but the suggestions in it are technically very spesific and relatively quickly doable, I believe. (Smoking might need some work, though.)

The curing thread indeed suggests a tanning overhaul for realism, but doesn't require it to reach its main aims:

So, getting finally to my suggestion:

1) accept cured hides for kota covers and "sleeping in furs"
2) shorten curing times to max overnight or allow picking up of skins with curing still continuing

The 'overhaul' was this:

3) complicate tanning to make it more realistic and to encourage curing to be used more
4) make cured skins available in villages and for trade - preferably much more commonly than tanned hides. I understand this would affect game balance significantly and prices would need to be adjusted accordingly, with tanning lifting the cost especially of big hides - not so much of the valuable small furs.

You see, I put a great deal of thought in writing suggestions, to make them easily readable and doable from coder's perspective. Numbers are also usually orders of priority in my lists, where applicable. But they are only suggestions, not requests. Something put freely on the table to gather refining feedback and possible support from fellow Unrealists. It's totally up to Sami to decide what to do with it and what are the priorities.

I actually don't even expect it (3+4), but if Sami really is up to actual tanning overhaul, I'm at his service if the time comes.
EDIT: There's actually some ideas in the terminology discussion later on. I had forgotten. 

But from a technical gameplay perspective i think it works fine, but should at least get the right description while tanning. that is my point.

Curing immediately after skinning would be big gameplay change and smaller change in code, imho. But we all have our priorities   

Same with farming. Balance-wise i find it working good, perhaps must be nerfed, but thats not my concern. Mine is just a suggestion to get rid of the most hand-aching keyjockeyings. especially if you sit on a punt, you gotta press shift + g all the time... then chose amount and confirm.
i mean, honestly: i clear a little field of reeds, like 20 patches or so, and my hand hurts. and sometimes after a while i confuse and mix up the keys, because i jockey so fast. and i am not an extreme farmer-player...

Harvesting from a punt? Clever. So I see you need not just auto-pickup where you stand but harvesting too. Like automatically harvesting/picking up instead of moving on a harvestable/pickupable plant/item-mode. Would that work?

i mean, in the end, everything you do in URW is much easier than it would be in real life. when i think about it; in a strange way, physical pain is some real-realistic consequence of living a farming lifestyle. hunters and nomads dont have knee problems... unless it's a bear ripping your leg off

Yes I agree. Real life = pain.   

[Tom H]

"i cannot get a grasp of what you mean regarding the harvesting."

I refer to how the player will have orderly fields of 40x40 plantings (or even larger), whereas the villagers 'fields', in the clear lands around their village consist of widely scattered plantings of a single square of land. The latter would not lend itself easily to programming, I suspect.

[Dr.Hossa]

Ok, sorry, i think i didnt read all of your tanning post, so leather topic is not new. But i think it would be a good first step to just give the hides and furs the right description to distinguish them from another while you are tanning.

So, this thread comes down basically to the harvesting topic.
I will explain myself a little bit more accurate if you dont mind...:

Situation:
Your character is standing near a ripe plant. you press 'alt+a' for agriculture and 'h' for harvest, then 'space' to confirm.
So this is nothing new, so now my suggestion. I would really enjoy a feature like this:

Instead of the harvested plant laying on the ground[requiring you to further key-jockey, like 'alt'+'g', choose direction 'choose amount' 'Enter' 'space' to confirm(all this for 1 tile of plants)], it is put directly inside your inventory. Just like when you pick young leaves or berries or mushrooms, for example.

that would be the standard harvesting procedure. Also the old method would still be there as "Cut" in the agriculture menu, which would leave the crop laying on the ground just like it has been for now.

If that new feature would unbalance farming, then ofc there could be made changes like, for instance, the harvesting taking more time.
Also this would lead players to only "cut" plants, to have them threshed on the field(for example) or picked up later.

Standard "Harvest" would be chosen when you want to take the plants to your processing site.

[JP_Finn]

This would be very welcome for anyone not farming but harvesting lake reed using watercraft too.
At the moment one can’t even move to a tile with anything in it with watercraft, on water and unto a shore alike.

E.g. if I choose to harvest lake reed, I don’t see any scenario where I’d want to leave it floating.
Growing lake reeds do not block your movements.
If someone is harvesting lake reed as agriculture practice; then take it to next level and also thresh and grind...

Yes, some of my characters use lake reed flour in stews and mushroom soups. And sometimes even in certain spells requiring bread. Less hassle than barley or rye with their time sensitive planting schedule.

[PALU]

I agree the current harvesting being "cut in adjacent, but not current, tile and then pick it up by either grab remotely or move and pick up" is annoyingly cumbersome, so that a "cut and pick up" action would be very welcome (and lead to fewer instances of forgetting to pick the plants up).

Agriculture, as it currently stands, is definitely too secure. Apart from the occasional badger (which can't be kept out with a fence) and elk/reindeer (which can be kept out) you're guaranteed to get a good harvest, which doesn't exactly mimic history, where famine due to a bad or completely failed harvest was a constant threat. I believe that kind of misfortune is in the development plans, though.

[Dr.Hossa]

Spoiler: show

This would be very welcome[/b] for anyone not farming but harvesting lake reed using watercraft too.
At the moment one can’t even move to a tile with anything in it with watercraft, on water and unto a shore alike.

E.g. if I choose to harvest lake reed, I don’t see any scenario where I’d want to leave it floating.
Growing lake reeds do not block your movements.
If someone is harvesting lake reed as agriculture practice; then take it to next level and also thresh and grind...

Yes, some of my characters use lake reed flour in stews and mushroom soups. And sometimes even in certain spells requiring bread. Less hassle than barley or rye with their time sensitive planting schedule.

thanks, you are pointing out exactly what i meant to bring in here.

@PALU: I agree that harvesting could be overpowered, but again, that could be managed. And i think there are also players who enjoy this rather quiet and peaceful playstyle. By the way, i think that this is some kind of a "Signature" aspect of the game, that you dont get elsewhere.
And since robbers, njerpez and wolves still can spawn right on top of you, there always is some kind of "rest" risk, unless you play with the -door-right-at-the-water- "exploit".

In the end, this is about game-handling here. I dont see a big problem in "unbalanced lifestyles" as long as there is no multiplayer mode, although on the long run, of course everything should be balanced.
And i too, would love to see some hurdles and obstacles regarding a farming lifestyle. Perhaps one could make farming results even more dependant on the agriculture skill. I think this could be a first approach without bearing the need of an overhaul.

Looking at my real life pathetic farming attempts, i actually was quite surprised. Especially plants that are adapted and endemic, like Leek, Onions, radish, potatoes and cabbage grew fantastically despite me being extraordinarily lazy. Not to speak of the pumpkins... One even threatened to conquer all of my garden.
I basically just planted them and they grew, only needed water on the most dry days. No fertilizer, no slug pellets, no glyphosate... I quite thoroughly prepared the soil indeed, but that was about it.
Weather should have more of an influence. E.g. rain and temperature drop in late summer destroyed my tomatoes within 3 days. Still had harvested more than 7 kilos before anyway.

[PALU]

I don't have a problem with sandbox games being "unbalanced", requiring players to set up house rules of they want to live on the edge. Nor would I have anything against a setting that allowed pest/drought/frost/excessive rain/... misfortunes to be toggled off for those who'd want to have a secure vegetable supply to allow them to focus on whatever project they want to engage in.

[Sami]

Situation:
Your character is standing near a ripe plant. you press 'alt+a' for agriculture and 'h' for harvest, then 'space' to confirm.
So this is nothing new, so now my suggestion. I would really enjoy a feature like this:

Instead of the harvested plant laying on the ground[requiring you to further key-jockey, like 'alt'+'g', choose direction 'choose amount' 'Enter' 'space' to confirm(all this for 1 tile of plants)], it is put directly inside your inventory. Just like when you pick young leaves or berries or mushrooms, for example.

that would be the standard harvesting procedure. Also the old method would still be there as "Cut" in the agriculture menu, which would leave the crop laying on the ground just like it has been for now.

If that new feature would unbalance farming, then ofc there could be made changes like, for instance, the harvesting taking more time.
Also this would lead players to only "cut" plants, to have them threshed on the field(for example) or picked up later.

Standard "Harvest" would be chosen when you want to take the plants to your processing site.

Yes, there are several occasions where the interface could be made less burdensome for the player – and harvesting mechanics is one of them. These things exists often because chaining the character actions is quite troublesome due to design and nature of the roguelike game engine and approach. Sometimes it's more doable, than in other cases. I guess it would be doabke to add pickup command trigger right after harvesting is done, so I'll explore this possibility, although weird setback may sometimes follow. One thing that would do harvesting (and some things also) easier would be to allow auto-picking up single item stack, just like one single item is picked without confirmation. But then again, sometimes you only want to pick x items from a stack.
All in all, if this gets implemeneted in the end we'll propably add new “Harvest and pick” command to agriculture menu for this alternative.

[Dr.Hossa]

One thing that would do harvesting (and some things also) easier would be to allow auto-picking up single item stack, just like one single item is picked without confirmation. But then again, sometimes you only want to pick x items from a stack.
All in all, if this gets implemeneted in the end we'll propably add new “Harvest and pick” command to agriculture menu for this alternative.

That would be really cool.
Especially the first one would be quite handy. perhaps a new "auto pick mode" in general... perhaps even better than adding a single harvest pick command, which probably would make annoying consumers like me going on your nerves with that issue again, only referring to other not-farming situations.

I see myself(and i guess many others do also) running around in "vacuum cleaner-mode" alot, gathering stuff like stones, rocks, triggered snares with carcasses, harvested plants, not caring in detail what is wandering in my inventory. I just get rid of excess weight/unwanted items in regular intervals. Ofc it should be optional, since critical situations could render this unhandy, for example picking up a knife from a killed enemy while fighting.

Hm. hard to tell which would be more convenient, not only for players and gameplay, but also for you dev's and the general design of the code. Because we players cannot see the future plans(regarding code changes) and the new bugs, impact and obstacles such a change would create in turn.
No matter how you decide, i think both options would be appreciated by the people. Really cool you took the time for this!

*puts another mud worm on the altar of sacrifice*

[Buoidda]

I also tend to roam around in vacuum-cleaner mode (funny I thought of the word even before finding it in yours, @Dr.Hossa), thus upholding that roguelike tradition.

My camp consists of dispersed piles of sorted goods (junk).

So yes, I too would very much like to see quick-key for toggling vacuum mode on and off (used when entering camp).

alt+g?