Buff up the elks, add swimming and jumping over fences

[Buoidda]

Ok we all know Unreal predators (even lynxes) are dangerous. But that's cool and all, I'm not here because of that.

My point is: Unreal elks aren't. They really are wimpy compared to the real ones. My current char had so much trouble chasing an elk he dropped all weapons but a small knife in order to ski faster. In the end, he knifed and kicked an adult elk to death (with near or zero skill in those). Sure he got a crush in the eye and fractured ribs and some bruises.

Now watch this video I took when an adult bull elk was spooked by our approaching car and tried to jump over a reindeer fence.

Spoiler: Bull elk stuck on reindeer fence • show

https://vimeo.com/477700978

Would you have gone there with a knife? He tore up the fence and walked slowly away like a boss. Here's the fence afterwards:

Spoiler: Obliterated fence • show

What happened was just bad luck on its behalf. Normally they jump gracefully over no problem. That's actually a requirement of the modern reindeer fence.


So finally coming up to my suggestion:

1) I'd like to see elks, especially bull ones, buffed up considerably. It should be madness to go against them practically bare-handed. The reward is anyways a huge amount of meat. More strength, stamina and speed.

2) Elk AI: Naturally they should almost always just flee, but when cornered they shouldn't just run circles to exhaustion but stop to rest and threaten the pursuer with a snort and kicking the ground. Fight or flight, not flight until breathless (see no. 4)

3) Enable elk to jump over fences or even break them when fleeing.

4) Elks are great swimmers irl, ought to be grandmasters in Urw.

Spoiler: Basic URW elk hunting tactic • show

It'd be cool to come to a new version of urw and try to exploit this old tactic only to realize the elk just swims away. Of course there should be some reluctance to animals wading and swimming, but it'd be a cool addition. Applies to reindeers too. Let's actually speak of ungulates.

EDIT: I found this bug report: https://www.unrealworld.fi/forums/index.php?topic=4731.0

5) Urw ungulates (hoofed herbivores) are pretty good to get out of a hole in ice?
I've noticed that ungulates fall through ice easily and get out just as easily. Imagine an elk in a hole in the ice. No way it's gonna get on the ice again unless wading. This would also be a bit of balancing to previous things that make elk hunting much more difficult. Also reluctance to enter thin ice would need to be somewhat increased, maybe only when escaping.

6) EDIT: Attack: Trampling. (Allow aggressive elks/big reindeer/beoars to enter a tile with a character, making them 'fallen'.) Hehe. And there it goes...

7) EDIT: Only pits should work for ungulates. This was always odd anyway... It's not in their nature to go into tight spots. I think all ungulates should pass all snares, lever and deadfall traps without harm or trigger. Well maybe the bear trap would be an obstacle, for a reindeer.

IRL, IRL...Why do I think this is so important game-wise?
- I think this is a major game balancing issue, increasing time span to get secure with food.
- Currently is easy to exploit big herbivore ai to get one's belly full for a long time. I'd like to see elks as a prize, not a potato. 
- Making ungulates harder would make small game hunting/fishing for food more useful/needed.


Bring on the discussion! What do you think?

[trowftd]

I don't think there will be any discussion because there is nothing to disagree with in the first place 

Maybe the reason it is really easy to go 1v1 with them is when you actually can get close to them they are almost always breathless. I got hurt pretty badly once from an elk attack, but I waited a few turns to actually see if they attack

So if I'm not wrong, a solution can be to increase their chance to attack even if they are breathless. But I don't really know if going in a fistfight with and elk was the choice for the finnish hunters or the behaviour of the iron age finnish elks

[JP_Finn]

Elk stamina should be multiplied by factor of 10-20. Endurance hunting elk should be a few days walk without rest. Not the current: send dog after an elk and then catch up 400m later to a breathless elk. Also, creatures as NPCs should get fatigued more in snow (apart from certain creatures running on the snow)

Erkka and others responded to another suggestion (springs, creeks, road rework) which included mention of game behavior, get in the water, swim or ford; so I full heartedly agree here.

[PALU]

I don't quite agree with the trap section. Most of the time they ought to just pass through snares, light lever traps, and fox pawboards, but occasionally those should be triggered (with no harm caused to the big animal [which should include all the big ones, not only ungulates, although seals should probably trigger traps most of the time, given the grace with which they move on land]).

I don't think they should move through large traps without triggering them, but rather just not walk into the confined space unless they really want to go to the other side. Thus, they'd trigger the traps more often than the small ones. Reindeer ought to have a chance to get caught by a wolf trap if they triggered it (which would be most of the time), or injured but getting through it (obviously no injury if the trap wasn't triggered). Reindeer ought to get caught by bear traps if they trigger it, while elks ought to have a chance to escape with only injuries, but trigger it every time.

[Buoidda]

... Most of the time they ought to just pass through snares, light lever traps, and fox pawboards, but occasionally those should be triggered (with no harm caused to the big animal ...

I could go to lengths about this, especially about pawboards, but I'll just say I would be fine with this too.

although seals should probably trigger traps most of the time, given the grace with which they move on land]).

Hehe. U so funny.

I don't think they should move through large traps without triggering them, but rather just not walk into the confined space unless they really want to go to the other side. Thus, they'd trigger the traps more often than the small ones.

I was thinking that animals can peacefully coexist on a same square with a trap. Much like people in villages can or how we pass through bushes and tables. It's supposed to be a 2m wide square so I think it's reasonable that a deer can just pass beside the trap, without touching it. Thus ignoring it automatically. I really think ungulates have no inclination to stick their heads to confined spaces and crawl in. What the predators do, drawn by the bait. Well maybe boars, if there's bait. It's not like its a space high enough for a bear or wolf to go in comfortably. Then it would be too slow a deadfall.

This is more like a game mechanic philosophy thing - is it obligatory to face the trap if one enters the tile? Do we want to be able to make 'walls' of traps, knowing that certain animals can't pass through them? My answer to these would be no.

Reindeer ought to have a chance to get caught by a wolf trap if they triggered it (which would be most of the time), or injured but getting through it (obviously no injury if the trap wasn't triggered). Reindeer ought to get caught by bear traps if they trigger it, while elks ought to have a chance to escape with only injuries, but trigger it every time.

Are you saying this because of realism or game balance? I'll elaborate my points once I know which one you mean.

[PALU]

What's the point of a trap fence if it doesn't guide the animals into the traps, but guides them into holes where there's a trap only the reindeer in the center of a tight formation wouldn't avoid? The same goes for trap lines.

You can make the argument that only pit traps (that can't be constructed on rocky or soggy terrain) are large enough to fill the 2 meter wide "hole" in between adjacent thingies, but it makes little sense for a trap fence where the fence can just automagically extend to fill the empty space, and it would be rather arbitrary to say that you can't make a trap line of anything but pit traps because the the game happens to use 2 meter wide tiles and only allows you to place one trap on each tile, so you can't actually close the gaps without leaving most of the line as free space.

Your bait argument indicates you're in favor of making any traps but pit traps useless unless baited (with traps placed on berry bushes being baited implicitly), and that would hold for trap lines as well as free standing traps (I agree I see no reason for an animal to enter a free standing trap unless it's baited, though).

[Buoidda]

What's the point of a trap fence if it doesn't guide the animals into the traps, but guides them into holes where there's a trap only the reindeer in the center of a tight formation wouldn't avoid? The same goes for trap lines.

You can make the argument that only pit traps (that can't be constructed on rocky or soggy terrain) are large enough to fill the 2 meter wide "hole" in between adjacent thingies, but it makes little sense for a trap fence where the fence can just automagically extend to fill the empty space,

I wasn't actually thinking nor talking about fences. Naturally it is as you say with fences.

(Though I think using fence with anything else than pits is unhistorical. There's bait + trap OR fence guiding into a pit trap or loop snare. Yes, loop snares are used without a bait. A little wall of twigs, hardly a fence though, so the birdie tries to walk through an opening in it.)
EDIT: This sounds too unflexible. See JPs comment below, it complements this well.

But in game I'm not so purist. I do use other traps in my fences too. But not to get ungulates but other animals.

and it would be rather arbitrary to say that you can't make a trap line of anything but pit traps because the the game happens to use 2 meter wide tiles and only allows you to place one trap on each tile, so you can't actually close the gaps without leaving most of the line as free space.

It would not make any sense in real life. And since I'm the role-playing type, I think using traps in long lines is exploitish and gamey. But that's just not my cup of cranberry juice. Of course people are free to play as they like.

Your bait argument indicates you're in favor of making any traps but pit traps useless unless baited (with traps placed on berry bushes being baited implicitly), and that would hold for trap lines as well as free standing traps (I agree I see no reason for an animal to enter a free standing trap unless it's baited, though).

No I'm not. The "drawn by the bait"-comment was a sidenote referring to real life traps, not changes I would make in Urw.

From realism and game immersion perspective:
My main argument was and is that deer-folk shouldn't be putting their heads and knees in tight places when they have no reason to. They can walk, jump or tatami roll over them or treat them as obstacles, idc that much. I just happen to still think they shouldn't trigger or be harmed by deadfall traps, of any size. Because of body dynamics and height. Reindeer are taller than wolves and on average taller than bears too. Elks couldn't possibly enter deadfall traps. Elk shoulder height is twice the height of the real life bear deadfall trap we have here in the museum.

Spoiler: show

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Siida_traps_Bear_trap_Karhunloukku_1.JPG

EDIT: After finding this picture, make that elk shoulder height three times that trap. Reindeer shoulder height twice the height of the trap. Any sized reindeer would bolt over that thing in a second without a second thought. Of course I'm not saying this is the only model but close enough and understandably what I'm thinking of. Btw there's other Urw traps featured in the outside museum, welcome to the museum! 

EDIT: (while I'm still ruminating over this) I do believe irl it is possible for all these animals to get stuck somehow in weird human contraptions, it happens. But very, very rarely. I once found a mummified reindeer calf hanging in midair, stuck in wire fence. So sad Actually the best thing in-game would be that deadfalls are almost never triggered by ungögögs, but that once in a urw characters lifetime they'd find a freakin' bull elk stuck in a bear trap by its antlers.

On game balance perspective:
I won't even get into this. It's even more needed to cut the possibilities to catch easy meat. (Though this little realism tweak doesn't really affect difficulty that much.)

Here I enclosed the leader of a group of reindeer. The others keep coming to him. I could chase them to breathless at my leisure.

Spoiler: I rest my case • show

I'm providing a save where I enclosed the whole herd in similar fashion, just in case someone wants to play around with it:

Spoiler: A save • show

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5m4fuzg6jo6fyln/ASLLAT%20herder.7z?dl=0

[Plotinus]

Bogs aren't very deep the reindeer should definitely wade into it to get away.

[PALU]

Traps, alone, in lines, or as part of fences:

Summarizing the above:

Reality:
1. Only pit traps really make sense in fences.
2. Only pit traps are usable for catching reindeer and elks.
3. Snares can work without bait (although I suspect it's just birds in that case, not hares?)
4. Traps apart from the cases above don't trap anything unless baited (except in freak cases)
5. Trap lines aren't a thing (although as far as I understand it, a line of snares still makes some sense if there's an implicit "fence" of twigs and the like between them). In general, animals just avoid the obstacles and pass through the free space in between them.
6. Larger animals tend to just pass over/beside traps too small for them, and would trigger them only very rarely (and then typically "from the outside", and so won't get harmed).
7. Fences aren't actually hard obstacles to reindeer or elks. Given enough incentive, they'd jump over, but why waste energy on a jump when there's an easy opening? When pursued, jumping a fence may be considered a better option than running along it. A fully fenced in farm plot area may well be enticing enough to warrant a jump.

Game (current):
1. Any kind of trap works in fences.
2. Trap lines are a great way to keep unwanted animals out of places you don't want them (such as your farm plots or your homestead), and, in fact, is the only one unless you're willing to build a full scale house wall around the area.
3. Trap lines usually keep animals of sizes other than the target one out, even though they wouldn't have much trouble passing through in reality. There are occasional cases where e.g. elks pass through snare trap lines, but I'm not sure I've seen e.g. badgers cross them.
4. Bear traps are alternatives to pit traps, with the advantage of not needing to be able to dig (frozen or unsuitable ground), but the disadvantage of requiring ropes.
5. Traps in trap lines trap animals of their target size, not letting any through.

Possible game changes (discussion points, rather than actual suggestions):
1. Pit traps being the only "catch all big game" choice.
2. Bear traps in trap fences keeping reindeer and elks from crossing (the fence going right up to the trap).
3. Wolf traps in trap fences keeping reindeer from crossing (?), as well as bears, unless the bear decides to smash the fence to get through (so it definitely won't go unnoticed). Elks would just pass over.
4. Elks and reindeer given the option to jump fences, but only doing it when there's enough incentive.  This has the problem of there not being any way to keep them out of anywhere short of a wall (neither palisades nor moats exist).
5. Reducing trap lines from being blocking lines to being a handy way to ensure humans detect them, but otherwise work as stand alone traps. Again, there's the problem of the lack of alternative ways to keep animals out. While elks and reindeer are mostly a nuisance in the wrong place, big predators are a dangerous threat that can't be kept out with fences.
6. Baiting required to stand a reasonable chance to catch anything unless it's part of a trap fence, unless the trap is a snare.

There are a lot of possible discussion points not listed above...

Swimming animals:
I agree almost all animals should try to escape by swimming rather than stupidly run back and forth along the water line. It would make the initial game a lot harder, though, as starting characters generally lack the tracking skill to chase animals to exhaustion, and typically don't have either the means or the skill to cripple them from a distance (after which they'd still fail to track them). Thin ice should probably keep them from trying to get away through water, while ice that's almost thick enough ought to make them hesitant, but taking the risk when there's no escape route (rather than running back and forth). On the one hand, it can be easier to catch them by drowning, but on the other hand it's a risky pain to recover the carcass. There's probably a need to consider game balance carefully.

[Buoidda]

A good summary @PALU. I'd like to add that I didn't propose or favor reindeer being able to jump over fences in the game. There are likely many players who like to herd reindeer into pens for later ... management.

Ps. Someone should actually propose taming animals - if it isn't already. I'm myself suffering a self-constituted cooldown period on making suggestions.

[JP_Finn]

Loop snares as well as lever traps do catch hares unbaited. Simply set the trap(s) on the animals path. And here a shrub, low fence, house/barn wall can be used to guide the animals into the traps. Even row of logs or trunks* should be usable as small-game fence. Yes, they can fly/jump/scurry/climb over around or even make U-turn; but small game, especially prey ones, like cover. And predators, well, like to check the cover spots.

*I wish the trunks/logs would be longer than 2m; than what we get from fallen trees...

[PALU]

Loop snares as well as lever traps do catch hares unbaited. Simply set the trap(s) on the animals path. And here a shrub, low fence, house/barn wall can be used to guide the animals into the traps. Even row of logs or trunks* should be usable as small-game fence. Yes, they can fly/jump/scurry/climb over around or even make U-turn; but small game, especially prey ones, like cover. And predators, well, like to check the cover spots.

*I wish the trunks/logs would be longer than 2m; than what we get from fallen trees...

Good point. An in-game problem is that there are no animal paths in the game (at least not ones that players can note unless observing individuals directly). However, placing traps between trees is somewhat similar (placing them on top if the in-game berry bushes is more like using natural bait, as most of the bushes are fairly low, with the exception of raspberry and black currant).

[Buoidda]

Idk how many readers are familiar with struggling in deep snow, but here's one more example of the power of the elk (they call it moose, same thing).

The display of power starts about 1:30 into the video. Enjoy.

https://cottagelife.com/outdoors/watch-a-moose-gallop-through-waist-deep-snow-like-its-thin-air

[Buoidda]

I know I asked to buff them up, but please don't make the head any harder.

Spoiler: Story of a particularly hard-headed elk • show

That sums up to 27 solid hits to the skull with the blunt end of a woodman's axe. 

[Frostbit]

Dang! I've had to resort to kicking elks to death barefooted with fewer strikes than that.

Are you sure you used the blunt side of the axe head and not just the handle?