Parry as skill

[zwierzax]

Hello,
I was stopped by two robbers yesterday, So I took opportunity and make a copy of my save.
After many tries I manage to kill them with minor injuries.
It was long hard, frustrating fight and I started to think that, someone who use a tool to hit, should have some experience in hitting living targets as well, but not in counterattacks and parry.
My character cut lots of trees, make lots of boards, so should know how to use axe to hit, but in that particular fight I won because I cripple both robbers with a bow, and then backing up, and counter strike their battle sword strikes.
I don’t think that simple lumberjack could do it, most likely dodge the strikes, and then hit them precisely like in elbows or knees.
So maybe add some more fighting related skills like parry, and then it shouldn’t be a problem that simple lumberjack is master of their weapon buts that all, with someone who have decent knowledge how to parry, he wouldn’t stood chance, but from simple robbers can defend himself

[PALU]

If the trees are dodging your lumberjack he should cut back on the booze and noiaidi mushrooms. Also, trees very rarely attack lumberjacks when they try to cut the trees down (a pile of snow or a dislodged branch at the worst).

Cutting down trees uses a completely different skill from using an axe for fighting in UrW, and the weapon skills include all usages of the weapon in a fight, i.e. attacking, counterattacking, and blocking (which essentially the same as parrying).

There's some synergy between cutting down trees and using an axe for combat, but that's not modeled in UrW. Also note that some "simple robbers" can be extremely hard to hit even for master fighters in UrW.

[zwierzax]

Cutting down trees uses a completely different skill from using an axe for fighting in UrW, and the weapon skills include all usages of the weapon in a fight, i.e. attacking, counterattacking, and blocking (which essentially the same as parrying

That’s the point.
It shouldn’t be, it should somehow crossover.
 In urw if my character is master in example sword, and lost it somehow in a fight, ant then pick up the axe who is not familiar with, this axe is useless, for me urw should be simulation, so if one know how to fight, one can do it with every weapon, But somewhat less effective but not to a point that weapon is almost useless.
If you know how to parry an attack with a sword, you can do with almost all weapons, maybe not so effectively but still.

Another thing, if one had mastery in more weapons, should be an better fighter, if you one fighting sword vs axe, and one are master in both you can predict moves of your enemy, because one know how to fight his weapon

[PALU]

UrW uses an adaptation of the Hârn system. I don't know anything about it myself, but if you look it up you'll probably be able to get some of the background info. Some systems have synergy effects, and some don't: each skill is its own stovepipe, and as far as I understand UrW belongs to the latter group.

And I don't thing there should be any significant synergy between wood cutting and axe fighting (and UrW has the odd case of flail usage increasing the flail fighting skill, which I don't think it should. On the other hand, I don't think anyone would try to fight with a flail unless caught unawares while threshing).

[zwierzax]

UrW uses an adaptation of the Hârn system.

I thought it was Sami invention

And I don't thing there should be any significant synergy between wood cutting and axe fighting.

Don’t you think that someone who are used to fell a trees, have better chances with someone who hold an axe for the first time ?

On the other hand, I don't think anyone would try to fight with a flail unless caught unawares while threshing

You just rediscovered origins on nunchaku.



Personally, And back to the topic - the axe/woodcutting skill was an example, that parry skill is needed. It’s a thing you use only in armed vs armed combat so it can’t be learned hitting animals.

[Ara D.]

I don't know, if you can redirect a bear paw you can dodge a ball, err redirect a mace

[PALU]

Sami has said he's used the Hârn rule set as the basis for the UrW rules.

Yes, I do think that someone who's used with swinging an axe at trees would be significantly better at swinging it at a beginner. But if you pit him against someone with a modest fighting skill with that axe? No.

Farm implements are usually rather poor for warfare, even when there may be weapons whose designs may have their roots in them. Also a number of those weapons were developed to get around prohibitions against peasantry to arm themselves.

You've obviously not fought a cornered elk or reindeer in UrW (not to mention bears and wolves, as well as the lesser, but not trivial, threats from gluttons, lynx, boars, and badgers). It's possible to train both dodge and shield using elk and reindeer, and I'd expect parrying a hoof isn't that different from parrying a weapon, if you're willing to risk damaging your weapon.

[zwierzax]

Parry a paw, or hoof, hand, bite ETC, is not a parry, it would be a counterstrike - one will damage the creature.
And good luck with try to parry a bear paw from 500+ kg bear or charging at you 50-60 km/h, or parry goring reindeer, elk/moose.
The only thing making sense in such situations is dodge and counterstrike.
The game is not perfect, it never will be. But there is always room for improvements.

Yes, I do think that someone who's used with swinging an axe at trees would be significantly better at swinging it at a beginner. But if you pit him against someone with a modest fighting skill with that axe? No.

That's why i propose parry skill, modest fighter which have some skill with that, will be better than someone with expertise only in hitting - like lumberjack.
I'm not saying that master luberjack (timbercraft skill) should have 100% in axes, but should have a bonus to attack

[Ara D.]

Ultima online use to give a damage bonus to players with lumberjacking skill when using an axe. Personally I like Samis system but it's a valid point that a skilled timber worker would have the muscle memory and body mechanics to deliver a powerful axe blow

[Labtop 215]

That would give axes a nice boost actually, since they kind of fall behind both spears and swords.

[Edico]

I feel like this is already modeled in the fact that the cultures that get + to timber craft also get + to axe skill. Those two skills also overlap in terms of starting stats, str/agi for axe and str/agi/dex for timber craft.

That would give axes a nice boost actually, since they kind of fall behind both spears and swords.

In my opinion If you don't consider starting skills the battle sword is the best melee weapon, if you do consider starting skills then the battle axe is the best weapon. Edge v. Point really seems to favor edge. I don't think axes need a boost.

[Labtop 215]

Actually, you can get sword skill relatively high with your starting skills as well.

The battlesword has a higher attack bonus (5) vrs the attack bonus of an axe (4), which means the battlesword will hit more often and score more counter attacks than a battle axe.  Furthermore, you can still boost swordsmanship if you are inclined while setting up a custom character.

[Dungeon Smash]

I agree that there probably should be some synergy between timbercraft and axe, but also I think it makes sense how starting cultures with bonus Timbercraft also have bonus Axe so it seems to pretty much balance out.  I don't think there should be a separate skill for parry, it's already incorporated into the weapon skill and I don't think it would really make sense to separate it.  Plus it would be one extra skill that combat character would have to spec into.

[Sami]

Hello,
I was stopped by two robbers yesterday, So I took opportunity and make a copy of my save.
After many tries I manage to kill them with minor injuries.
It was long hard, frustrating fight and I started to think that, someone who use a tool to hit, should have some experience in hitting living targets as well, but not in counterattacks and parry.
My character cut lots of trees, make lots of boards, so should know how to use axe to hit, but in that particular fight I won because I cripple both robbers with a bow, and then backing up, and counter strike their battle sword strikes.
I don’t think that simple lumberjack could do it, most likely dodge the strikes, and then hit them precisely like in elbows or knees.
So maybe add some more fighting related skills like parry, and then it shouldn’t be a problem that simple lumberjack is master of their weapon buts that all, with someone who have decent knowledge how to parry, he wouldn’t stood chance, but from simple robbers can defend himself

It’s quite hard to express the real fighting mechanics with numbers and math, in all the possible situations. The systems are always simplified.
It indeed sounds a bit silly that no fighting lumberjack is excellent to block with his axe, but without seeing the actual logs and situation we don’t really know if the robbers were making lousy attacks (due to their condition?) or the character being superior with counterstrikes.

Nevertheless, the pondering here is justified but the question is how complex we want things to go. If parry was a skill, shouldn’t it also be a skill that need to be learned separately for each weapon type? If I learn to parry with a sword, I surely need to find the different best parrying practises to be used with woodsman’s axe, and knives, and clubs. Should the counterstrikes, and maybe blocks also always be very poor if they haven’t been practised for real? And practising for real would mean that you’d really need to train with more skilled fighter than yourself. As a result, pretty much all of our characters would be quite helpless since they don’t have any fighting experience when the game starts.

Yes, these systems are simplified, yet believe me, the one in use is still quite complex and functional.

[Brygun]

As someone who was medieval combat trainer (SCA Marshall) the training in a weapon ALREADY includes the use of it to parry. That being whether one handed, two handed or weapon and shield.

The existing skills are already pretty diverse like axe vs mace in my fights, and those I trained others win, actually wield very similarly. Swords are bit different more in how the mass center is closer to the hand for thrusting.

One thing I think is missing from the base game is a way to train in your weapon skills. A few mods exist now for it.

One might see building a pell (practice post) that can get you to 50% and needing to hire NPCs for sparring practice to get around their skill level

For the pell or sparring practice I would like to just be a chunk of time spins by and you get a the "+" tick on the skill improvement, or a chance of the mark.

I myself in my early days attended a few classes then spend 10s if not 100s of hours pelling to train in basic motions. I already had some years of martial arts karate-kung fu training.

IT is hard and unlikely to get to "master" without others to train with.