eye kick & behaviour of aggressive forester upon knocking out aggressor

[ineedcords]

Hi,

As a fully armoured (dark green) character with a mini dog army of 4 while looking for the north pole, I just had an encounter with a 'forester adventurer'.
Normally I don't attack solo dudes and I admit what follows next is horrible behaviour. However it was performed as a semi-scientific test (saving game first then testing a what-if scenario)...

I pissed of this poor FA by broadhead shooting him first, then clubbed him a little to take the first weapon.
When he didn't want to play, I chased him and insisted on playing a little bit i.e. clubbed all his weapons, including improvised weapons of no-destruction (rocks, stones) etc.
Eventually he lost all his weapons, a chunk of blood, and stamina as expected.

Then this happened:

Code: [Select]

..(many kick attempts removed)..
(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer tries to kick you.
(143270):n5hh:[#]{04CA03D5}      | Defense Maneuver: Block with Roundshield
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | He executes a skilled kick and you make an awkward attempt to block with your roundshield.
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | His kick glances off of your abdomen still hurting you.
(AB5700):n5hh:[+]{04CA03D5}      | The impact doesn't penetrate your armour.

(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer tries to kick you.
(143270):n5hh:[#]{04CA03D5}      | Defense Maneuver: Block with Roundshield
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | His pathetic kick is barely an attack and you make an awkward attempt to block with your roundshield.
(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer stumbles and falls.
(000000):n5hh:[F]{04CA03D5}      | Forester adventurer rises back on his feet.

(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer tries to kick you.
(143270):n5hh:[#]{04CA03D5}      | Defense Maneuver: Block with Roundshield
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | He executes a skilled kick and you make an awkward attempt to block with your roundshield.
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | His kick glances off of your hip still hurting you.
(AB5700):n5hh:[+]{04CA03D5}      | The impact doesn't penetrate your armour.

(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer tries to kick you.
(143270):n5hh:[#]{04CA03D5}      | Defense Maneuver: Block with Roundshield
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | He fails to do more than a sloppy kick and you make an awkward attempt to block with your roundshield.
(000000):n5hh:[Y]{04CA03D5}      | You block his kick.

(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer tries to kick you.
(143270):n5hh:[#]{04CA03D5}      | Defense Maneuver: Block with Roundshield
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | He carries out a perfect kick and you make an awkward attempt to block with your roundshield.
(000000):n5hh:[H]{04CA03D5}      | His kick glances off of your eye still hurting you.
(3C5A98):n5hh:[:]{04CA03D5}      | The world turns black and you fall unconscious.

(3C5A98):n5hh:[:]{04CA03D5}      | You regain consciousness...
(663333):n5hh:[&]{04CA03D5}      | You get back on your feet.
(000000):n5hh:[T]{04CA03D5}      | The Forester adventurer tries to kick you.

My suggestions are:

1. Remove the chance of 'eye kick' completely. I don't think it's possible with real life physics, due to 2 reasons:
a. Size of feet vs size of eye socket: it's just near-impossible to kick someone in the eye, especially in the heat of battle.
b. Position of a foot in space vs position of eyes in space: there's about 2 mt vertical space in between. I won't just stand there while the kicker adjusts his flying kick perfectly (not in a full suit with a masterwork shield, which I am actively using every counter-move).

2. In the unlikely event a FA manages to knock out the aggressor:
a. He should either kill the aggressor, or
b. At least fully take all weapons initially, and probably everything useful in battle thereafter such as the shield. You might think "perhaps he was already unarming you?". It is true I do not know how much time passed (and maybe he was in the process of doing so) however when I came to, there were zero removed weapons therefore I think he just stood there doing nothing. He was on the same tile.

Thanks

[PALU]

Note that your character wasn't kicked in the eye because the opponent aimed for them, but because that's where the kick landed. The opponent probably aimed for the head, and the zone within the head happened to be the eyes.

When it comes to falling unconscious and waking up again, very little, or no time seems to pass in the situations I've seen, but it's not unusual to never wake up again (which means you have to roll a new character).
Hm, actually, my current character made a desperate starving attack against a Njerp, received a very bad wound, went unconscious, and woke up, with the Njerp nowhere to be seen, which is the only time I've encountered being spared (not counting robber beatings). As my character had nothing of value, the Njerp didn't take anything.

[ineedcords]

Note that your character wasn't kicked in the eye because the opponent aimed for them, but because that's where the kick landed. The opponent probably aimed for the head, and the zone within the head happened to be the eyes.

Yes, I understand that but it shouldn't be possible as the size of feet vs the size of 'opening' in the helmet for yes does not match. it shouldn't connect.

With regards to your njerp spared my character story: wow - didn't know that was possible.

[Plotinus]

even if it doesn't connect to your eyeball itself, the area near your eyes is really sensitive. A few weeks ago, I was carrying my cat and his foot touched a book I was also carrying and he panicked and clawed my face, missing my eye by about a milimetre. I was only slightly injured, but I until I looked in a mirror, I was sure he'd clawed the eye itself. It was surprisingly painful for days afterwards, my whole eye socket felt bruised.

[JEB Davis]

Back in school, in a fight on the bus, I gave a kid two black eyes with two right jabs. It's doubtful the punches actually touched his eyes, but along the lines of Plotinus' post, they landed in the eye-socket.

Picture the OP's kick to the spectacle helm. If the kick lands on the helm and forces the helm into the face, it could cause damage to the eye similar to the punches.

[Dungeon Smash]

I once had a character die this way... it was early winter and I followed some reindeer tracks near my house to small semi-frozen pond, where a reindeer had fallen through the ice near the shore and was unable to get back out.  I went over and began clubbing it to death... however, after it was severely wounded it somehow managed to land a kick to my eye and killed me instantaneously!  Amusing situation to image, I'm still not sure how to conceptualize it

[Sami]

My suggestions are:

1. Remove the chance of 'eye kick' completely. I don't think it's possible with real life physics, due to 2 reasons:
a. Size of feet vs size of eye socket: it's just near-impossible to kick someone in the eye, especially in the heat of battle.
b. Position of a foot in space vs position of eyes in space: there's about 2 mt vertical space in between. I won't just stand there while the kicker adjusts his flying kick perfectly (not in a full suit with a masterwork shield, which I am actively using every counter-move).

People already pointed out in the thread that the foot (or a big weapon for example) doesn’t have to enter exactly in the eye opening eg. in the helmet to cause damage to the eye area. Also, as the hits land around combatants bodies it doesn’t happen so that the both stay still and erect. It’s imagined that some moving is happening, your head may come down as you move about, it doesn’t have to be a high kick. Kicks to head are not something that NPCs actively try to do, they are things that may happen in the heat of the combat.

2. In the unlikely event a FA manages to knock out the aggressor:
a. He should either kill the aggressor, or
b. At least fully take all weapons initially, and probably everything useful in battle thereafter such as the shield. You might think "perhaps he was already unarming you?". It is true I do not know how much time passed (and maybe he was in the process of doing so) however when I came to, there were zero removed weapons therefore I think he just stood there doing nothing. He was on the same tile.

NPCs decide individually, and based on the events, what they do to downed enemy. They can decide to kill them, they can decide to spare them, they can decide to take the weapons and toss the guy away. You have to go through more defeats to see how it actually works. Here it’s also very likely that you were blacked out for a tiny moment, as there was no NPC move to be seen.
Of course it would be great to add more “after defeat” actions for NPCs, but they need to be though over based on more than one case example.

[Ara D.]

I kinda agree with the OP on the kicking in head thing unless there is a secret Foot of the North Star dojo in Finland I tink it's highly improbable to get KICKED in the head when your standing. That's a lot of distance to cover, pretty easy to counter by just shoving the guy with your shield. Maybe add inability to kick above waist or chest high or not unless you have a very high unarmored skill
 

[JP_Finn]

The range of head kick is same as head jab. I.e. if your punch can connect with opponents face, so can your kick. If you’re out of punch range to face, head kicks are out of range (to face, legs might be still in-range of kicks) too. 
Needs some practice. And decent flexibility. ~2 years from couch with 3x 1.5h /week.

But head kick, if full dark green on face: presumably with spectacle helmet, should never allow leather boot to pass the eye slits. The ancient boots had leather soles. No rubber, vibram or steel toe caps. Any blunt head attack against spectacle helmet should be treated as blunt attack on skull. Edge debatable. Point hit on eyes should be only to reasonably pass spectacle helmet eye slits.

And as for “not in heat of battle” I’d disagree and say, more likely in the heat of the battle. E.g. trying to swing at opponents legs, reaching forward and down, would bring upper body and head with it closer and lower. Unless using staff, spear, pole-axe, naginata etc. over 6’ weapon.
_{Shaolin kung-fu instructor since ‘96. Krav Maga, Bujinkan, MMA on the side.}

[Ara D.]

True I absolutely can see a kick of opportunity. The scenario I saw in my head was an opponent trying to kick a standing target. Like so many things it comes down to skills. Is one opponent a talented at unarmed and the other making poor decisions like bending down and overextending