Sheep killed a glutton?

[Saiko Kila]

Recently I've found a new mini-village of Kaumo, and noticed they have a pen with two sheep. Inside the pen was also a small glutton carcass. One of the sheep had seven wounds (all of them shallow tears) and was limping. I have examined all villagers I could find, and none of them had a weapon ready, meant they didn't fight recently, and the fight was probably instantly simulated when entering the village.

I've encountered many villages with peasants enclosed in pens, but that would be the first time with wild animal inside. I wonder how a sheep could kill a glutton. Admittedly, a sheep is about twice the size, but still, sheep are the most cowardly domestic animals in the game.

[PALU]

I've had a dog killed by a wild reindeer, and it's possible to get hurt as well as to get dodge and/or shield training by getting reindeer and elks to attack (since there are no wild sheep I haven't tried that training method with sheep).

[Tom H]

Could it have been a wolf in sheep's clothing? (hehe)

[Saiko Kila]

I used savescumming (save from before entering the village for the first time) to get some alternatives, and found that:
- the wolverine is always present nearby
- it enters the village and pen only if there are sheep, shortly after the player
- it only skims the border if there are pigs, and doesn't enter if there are no animals at all


In one case I was able to ask about animals, got a ram and sheep offered, went to see how many animals were there and found all two of them dead, with wolverine injured inside pen (four injuries). It quickly hopped over the fence and ran away.

So it seems that the sheep can injure wolverine, but usually are victim to it. This first time the sheep was just very lucky.

I've had a dog killed by a wild reindeer, and it's possible to get hurt as well as to get dodge and/or shield training by getting reindeer and elks to attack (since there are no wild sheep I haven't tried that training method with sheep).

You know, I tried it many times, but it is very hard to make elk enter the aggressive move. I sometimes throw several items at it (because it seems to be less lethal than hitting it) and in like 99% it loses consciousness or just die before it attacks me. In my current character, who is in his 5th year, only one elk attacked. But yeah, with other characters I had attacks, and also lost a dog once.

Now I train shield with bear, without attacking it at all (except a single throw for aggro) when it's trapped. But even a bear dies suddenly during training in the third our fourth day.

[PALU]

The technique I use against reindeer and elk is to chase it around until it's exhausted, and then walk around to stand in front of it until it attacks, but it's a fair bit of work do do it. The ideal is to manage to herd it into a pocket in between trees where the only way out is through the player: that can give a lot of training. It's also possible to order a dog to stay to block an exit, but the bugger moves away anyway after a while.
That kind of training gets really tedious when the skill level gets high, though, and I tend to give up after about 600 attacks (at which time the character is hungry).
Attacks to aggravate the animal is counter productive in the sense that it tends to fall unconscious. Also note that these attacks are *not* aggro attacks, so dogs don't react to it.
Of course, when performing that kind of training top level protection is needed for the occasional attack that hits.
Also note that trapped animals are more dangerous, ironically, because they typically aren't exhausted, and thus don't suffer from huge fatigue penalties.

[Aerotinge]

The technique I use against reindeer and elk is to chase it around until it's exhausted, and then walk around to stand in front of it until it attacks, but it's a fair bit of work do do it. The ideal is to manage to herd it into a pocket in between trees where the only way out is through the player: that can give a lot of training. It's also possible to order a dog to stay to block an exit, but the bugger moves away anyway after a while.

Here's my settlement, with a danger room full of forest deer. I manage to catch them by 2 precondition.
I. Deer pack nearby
II. Fences/traps around the red line that keep forest deer (blue path) must cut across my settlement.

Once any of deers run on blue path, it's a good start.
When deer run into cave(1), I build a fence at green area. Open door 2, 3.
Chasing the deer in the cave, it should be breathless then. And it will always run into the cabin.
Operating in a similar way to Canal Panama, to catch one deer in this way is quiet easy.
Forest deer WON'T discard companions, so a deer in the pasture, one after another, become a pack in the pasture.

Also note that trapped animals are more dangerous, ironically, because they typically aren't exhausted, and thus don't suffer from huge fatigue penalties.

But these fatigued deers are still dangerous. I had a bad time...

[PALU]

And I bet the wounded character wasn't up to the maximum protection level in clothing/armor...
Most of the times my character gets injured I've forgotten to put on the max protection gear.
I don't think fatigue affects the impact of a hit, just the likelihood of a strike connecting.

[Saiko Kila]

The technique I use against reindeer and elk is to chase it around until it's exhausted, and then walk around to stand in front of it until it attacks, but it's a fair bit of work do do it. The ideal is to manage to herd it into a pocket in between trees where the only way out is through the player: that can give a lot of training. It's also possible to order a dog to stay to block an exit, but the bugger moves away anyway after a while.

Hm, I use snakes for something like this. They are excellent for dodge training, because when breathless they never hit. However, reindeers and the like are less than ideal to me for two reasons: it's much harder to make them attack (despite their higher health) even if cornered, because they are naturally less aggressive, and it's harder to corner them, because they are way too speedy and regain stamina faster than in older versions. And my character is quite quick, too. There is a way to make elk breathless fast, it has to be crippled by shooting, but they don't like attacking.

There is also lynx, which is easy to corner and make breathless (much easier than elk from my experience, even without spell), and also fairly aggressive. But lynxes tend to be dangerous (hit) even when breathless.

That kind of training gets really tedious when the skill level gets high, though, and I tend to give up after about 600 attacks (at which time the character is hungry).

I've found that just throwing a bunch of shields a single tile (I usually have a stack of 25 shields for this) repeatedly can train me faster than animals after some level, and before certain level, especially when killing time waiting for some skin to tan. It's just very boring.

Attacks to aggravate the animal is counter productive in the sense that it tends to fall unconscious. Also note that these attacks are *not* aggro attacks, so dogs don't react to it.
Of course, when performing that kind of training top level protection is needed for the occasional attack that hits.

I meant attacking when animals is trapped. It won't attack otherwise, and a single punch is enough usually - though only for correct species (like bears, which are ma favourite for training). If you attack an animal, and it doesn't respond, dogs don't respond too, but once the animal is aggravated (red lines shown), the dogs will be also aggressive, so to prevent them from attacking the animal I just tie them to a tree nearby.

Generally in recent version I find that animals encountered - be it wolves, bears or other dangerous carnivores - rarely attack. Heck, even Njerp usually flee. That's why I don't see wolves or bear as nearly as dangerous as robbers. If I encounter them, I can choose to run away in 99% of cases (well, I do it often with robbers too if I'm not ready, but animals go away from me, making it easier). Sometimes even zoom out when they are very close, for some reason.

Also note that trapped animals are more dangerous, ironically, because they typically aren't exhausted, and thus don't suffer from huge fatigue penalties.

Trapped animals tire quite quickly, though, even if all you do is block with a shield. Unfortunately, as I said in earlier post, they don't last more than few days, even when not injured further. This gave me idea - next time I catch an elk (because I rarely catch reindeers) I will deconstruct the trap, after the animal is breathless. Maybe then it will be willing to attack me.

Armour is wonky. I have much armour, many levels (36-37 items equipped) and sometimes it seems to be just bypassed. Recently I trained with a bear, and it gave me injury in a layer with many levels of protection, without damaging armour much, if at all.

[PALU]

I know you can train combat skills by throwing (except dodge...), but I don't do that (nor do I fire arrows at the ground as training, using Nerps as pin cushions instead, and blunt arrows at captured animals), because it's a self imposed restriction. On the other hand I set and reset a snare trap while waiting for fatigue to go away before skinning an animal (I've never claimed to be consistent...).

I don't train against wolves and bears because they're simply too dangerous. I assume it would be possible to use Njerps if you checked that they didn't have too dangerous weapons beforehand, though.

I suspect the distance at which you can zoom out depends on whether you're in the same world tile or not.

I don't expect a released elk to be more or less prone to attack than one you've chased to exhaustion: most of the time will be spent trying to get away. but if you build a fence around the trap so the only way out is through you, once you release it it will probably attack reasonably often.

[Saiko Kila]

I know you can train combat skills by throwing (except dodge...), but I don't do that (nor do I fire arrows at the ground as training, using Nerps as pin cushions instead, and blunt arrows at captured animals), because it's a self imposed restriction. On the other hand I set and reset a snare trap while waiting for fatigue to go away before skinning an animal (I've never claimed to be consistent...).

You know, throwing javelins to train spear is a perfectly natural way, after all that's what they are for. I use spear, but most of kills is from throws. It's an unnatural method for shield, although thrown shields are both deadly and relatively safe for skin: so in the game you can utilise shields by dropping a stack of them in the place, and picking up and throwing at attackers (for example coming robbers), or keeps some in inventory and pursue prey and pickup the ones thrown.

I don't use training with arrows much because arrows are expensive in the first stage of the game, and later Bow skill is trained just by using very quickly in my opinion. Additionally, many of the wounded adventurers offer to teach bow. In current char I used dry training only to check if it still works.

By the way, blunt arrows can cause bleeding damage and destroy skin, this is just less probable than other arrows (this is taken directly from HarnMaster). I smashed many small animals to pieces with blunt arrows (they are very heavy, which may be taken into account), and damaged others, so don't use them anymore. Recently a single shot from a point (standard) arrows killed a pine-marten so nicely, I was able to make a superiors skin! It has never happened with blunt arrow.

I don't train against wolves and bears because they're simply too dangerous. I assume it would be possible to use Njerps if you checked that they didn't have too dangerous weapons beforehand, though.

Yes, they are dangerous (for training, because with dogs it's very easy to bring them down). Recently I was training dodge/shield on a captured wolf, and it managed to cause me four nasty eye and face injuries, they seem to target head. That's the problem with wolves and bears, and one need to take it into account - but thanks to it I managed to train Physician some more.

But I've found an ideal animal for trap training - a lynx. It tires very quickly, which means after some initial shots it almost never hits. I force them to attack me by throwing flowers (the same with snake, except snake is not trapped). I had two lynxes in two weeks, and was able to train three days with both of them, gaining 7+9 points in dodge and 6+7 points in shield, before their Sudden Death Syndrome hit. They gave me only a single eye injury (for some reason spectacle helm doesn't protect eyes unlike in HarnMaster). My guy has currently 87 Dodge and 89 Shield, and I won't need many more animals to max the skills.

Snakes are rare to find, and although preferred, now I have a more reliable method, thanks to lynxes.

I tried it with elks and domesticated animals, even by releasing an elk from the trap, but when cornered and no place to run, it just stands there. I know they can attack, they just don't do it to me for some reason. I would try swine (wild boars and sows), because they are naturally very aggressive, but they are so rare, and don't get into traps, that it is almost impossible.

On a side note, training with lynxes cost me a dog, which was the first dog I bought, so it had sentimental value. When incensed, the dogs tied to a tree were so aggressive, than one dog attacked my own reindeer (they do it sometimes, I don't know why). Apparently the reindeer did something to the dog, because after zooming out the dog was unleashed and dropped dead, along with it items. What's strange that it appeared on a lake tile, next to the tile I was zooming out. Which is normally impossible, because you cannot zoom out on a lake tile, nor walk into it in summer. According to the log the dog ran away (you hear something running away in the south-east), and then it died, still leashed. May be a bug. Anyway, I don't take dogs to my training sessions with trapped animals anymore.

I don't expect a released elk to be more or less prone to attack than one you've chased to exhaustion: most of the time will be spent trying to get away. but if you build a fence around the trap so the only way out is through you, once you release it it will probably attack reasonably often.

I should have built an enclosure with the released elk, animals and trees for blocking are less predictable, but I think it is too much work, after I found that lynxes are so reliable.


Now, in an addendum to the original topic about glutton - recently I had a first visit of a predator to my animal pen (it's fifth year's summer), and heard it behind the cave wall. When I came there I've found a fallen and injured sheep inside, and a fatigued glutton on top of the fence, next to the sheep. I jumped in, the glutton ran into the cave. I picked only a bunch of javelins when coming, so waited, and when the glutton came near entrance threw a jav, and then four others, remaining with only one, which I used to hit the glutton now and then, when it was returning (my bovines, sheep and me were blocking the entrance, but glutton could walk on top of fallen sheep, while I couldn't). Once it was unconscious I started bashing it in the head with javelin. What a stamina this guy had! Despite being unconscious, and me having guaranteed hit, which usually is mortal with animals this size, I had to hit him 16 times.

EDIT: The sheep recovered, it was standing the next day. This means that sheep can occasionally stand against the glutton, at least long enough to inconvenience them.

[PALU]

I've had a dog die in a similar way to Saiko Kila. My character ran into a Njerp while returning from a trip and the dog was injured sufficiently to be rendered unconscious. Despite that, it followed my character home (without being leashed) which still unconscious, always on the world tile to the east. When back at the homestead, I checked some of my traps in the nearby tiles (by zooming out move, and then zoom in), when I suddenly saw the dog wasn't with my character anymore. It was found dead on the tile to the east, which was a water tile. I don't remember if the dog carcass was on the zoomed out map or the zoomed in one, but I think it was on the zoomed out one. I suspect there's something going on with unconscious animals (and, presumably, companions) when traveling on the world map with a water tile to the east (or possibly only zooming in/out with a water tile to the east).