Some new player's feedback

[shorun]

Personally I don't mind that some items can't be repaired, certainly it would be nice to be able to repair wool clothing (especially the rare ones like socks) but I think it's also somewhat nice that you have to keep looking for these things and get some spares. And ofcourse metal armor might be a bit beyond the possibilities of a lone wanderer to repair, especially since the tribes don't seem to actually make it themselves as far as I'm aware.

And either way, a small scratch from falling off a tree won't affect the clothings stats, atleast not noticeably. I also find that if you have good armor that blocks the damage you take, the armor actually doesn't really get damaged at all, so once you get metal armor it's actually pretty tough to lose durability on it, much less any wool or linen clothing underneath. And really, full fur clothing is the best clothing , with some extra additions like wool/linen mittens/socks/cowls and leather boots, and a leather belt for style.

i find metal armour, even masterwork, to last a very short time. its very effective and i do keep a set in case i go vikingr in njerp lands, but i'm somewhat afraid of using it, if i were to use it full time i cannot keep up replacing it fast enough.

fur and leather can be repaired, so i hunt a few bears to make a full bear set, repairing doesnt care whar fur it is so you only need bear for the first production. that still seems to be the most effective for daily use AND allows you to travel in winter. wich is another point against metal, the weight and uselessness against cold makes it a terrible choice in winter, fur+leather works far better for its weight, its a one size fits all.


altough, for rp reasons i dont use the fur in summer.

[flibbo]

I actually think the ice breaking, and the freezing without clothing, are good examples of the game working as intended.  You were the one who chose to walk out on the ice, despite the weather and time of year... do you think in real life, a message would pop up telling you not to do so?  As Erkka said, this sort of thing does happen in real life.  and as for wandering about nude... Just put your clothes on and pay attention to your coldness rating this game does not hold your hand, and I like it that way.

No of course I wouldn't get messages like that in real life. In real life I would have all my senses (and hopefully a working brain  ) at my disposal to make a much more qualified judgement about something like this. You don't have this in a video game. The messages are exactly my point, you rely on this way of communication not just in this game but in gaming in general. You rely on them because you don't have all the information you would have in reality. I don't feel the biting cold that would make me put on clothes before freezing to death and I don't see the thawing that occurs and makes ice unsafe. When the game tells you in one situation it's not safe to do something but allows the same action in another, you of course logically assume that it's safe. It's the messages that create the whole problem with the unsafe ice in the first place. If on the wilderness map it would work the exact same way as when zoomed in, i.e. there would be no messages at all, the player could never assume that it's safe. Not saying I want it to be like this - it wouldn't make much sense because one step on the wilderness is a whole 100m instead of just 2m.

I'm not sure about drinking bogwater in this time period.  For one thing, there were far less sources of pollution than now.  There weren't as many strains of bacteria in a place like Finland either.   An ancient iron age person would also be immune to giardia and many other forms of illness, from having drank unsterilized water their entire life.  However.... would it still be safe to drink from a bog?  I'm not sure. 

Well I'm no biologist but I do know that even the most hostile places on earth - which Finland is not a member of - are home to microorganisms, this is where the danger comes from when drinking water in the wilderness. It's not about pollution so the timeframe doesn't matter. Fresh water streams in the wilderness are of course used by animals as well, who frequently defecate into them, so besides bacteria like e. coli or salmonella, and microsporidia like giardia you're also at risk to catch parasites like tapeworms. Anything that could live inside a wild animal basically. I admit I don't know exactly how the ancient tribes actually dealt with this problem, but it must have already existed back then. I find it very hard to believe that they were all just immune to it and just us modern humans now suddenly are vulnerable to them.

Finally, I disagree with you about the heating/heat retention abilities of wood saunas, but I agree that I think you should have to keep the smoke going for the whole time of the meat-smoking process.  Of course, you are already perfectly able to do so if you wish to roleplay ... and I often do.

You really believe that three sticks and two pieces of firewood will keep a cabin at sauna temperatures for several days...? Sorry but I call BS on that

[Erkka]

  and I don't see the thawing that occurs and makes ice unsafe. When the game tells you in one situation it's not safe to do something but allows the same action in another, you of course logically assume that it's safe. It's the messages that create the whole problem with the unsafe ice in the first place. 

well, the way I think of it:

- the moment you stepped on the ice it was safe, and the game didn't warn you.
- you kept on happily walking on the safe ice
- the moment you noticed that the ice has been thawing while you walk, becoming dangerously thin, that very moment the game gives you a message and forces you to zoom in, as now every 2 metres counts

this is the logic now. I do understand that it would be very helpful if there were some kind of early warning messages like "you think the ice might be becoming dangerously thin rather soon" or something, but that is always a question of balance. I mean, if there was a small message in the message log, we could still get players complaining "I didn't pay attention to that humble small message, I'd like the game to tell me in big red letters on top of the map screen that things are soon getting dangerous!". Or, if the early warning messages were more attention-catching, I'd guess some players would be complaining "I'd like to have a config option to switch off these annoying spammy messages!". (And, again, we can still think that the system now is that the game tells you as soon as the character notices that the ice is becoming unsafe. The game can't tell you before the character notices that. You are told the moment your character spots the marks of the dangerous thawing. How could the game send you a message about a think your character is not aware of?)

Well, but I agree there could be more player-initiated means to check the ice. Maybe in some future version weatherlore or some other skill could be used to evaluate the ice thickness. I think that would be a realistic way, and leaving the decision up to the player.

ps. what comes to drinking waters; I'm not sure but I'd guess this is something which is different in places with warmer climate, and places with more dense population than iron age Finland. Even nowadays in Finland, especially in remote areas, about all waters are drinkable. The risk of catching a harmful bacterial infection is rather low, and I pretty much believe that the ancient people indeed were more resistant to the common bacteria living in local waters. Yet, I do agree there maybe could be some risk added to drinking bog waters in the warm summer months - but that goes into the more general category of not-yet-implemented features, like the risk of accidentally cutting your knee when felling trees with an axe.

[flibbo]

I mean, if there was a small message in the message log, we could still get players complaining "I didn't pay attention to that humble small message, I'd like the game to tell me in big red letters on top of the map screen that things are soon getting dangerous!". Or, if the early warning messages were more attention-catching, I'd guess some players would be complaining "I'd like to have a config option to switch off these annoying spammy messages!"

Config options are never a bad idea imo, they tend to make everyone happy. Anyway, getting messages that are easily missed is very different from getting no messages at all. I too wished in my OP for freezing messages to be more intrusive, but I would admit that the unsafe ice is a much bigger problem - because in the first case at least I do have the information, it's just that I as the player can easily make the mistake of not paying attention, which I can fix by getting to know the game better. In the unsafe ice case there is no such option unless I avoid ice altogether in all but the coldest months.
I suppose there will always be people who complain - there was one in this thread too who thinks clearer communication would be "hand holding" - but don't you at least want to communicate life or death matters in a way that grabs the player's attention, if nothing else - considering that there is no reloading option at all if the player does die? Even when animals enter your field of view this happens, and that's in most cases far from being life or death. What's the logic behind this? It might be a bear that might try to kill you? You might be starving and desperate to hunt an animal? Well doesn't the same logic apply to freezing to death and unsafe ice because they're just as life-threatening?

(And, again, we can still think that the system now is that the game tells you as soon as the character notices that the ice is becoming unsafe. The game can't tell you before the character notices that. You are told the moment your character spots the marks of the dangerous thawing. How could the game send you a message about a think your character is not aware of?)

But the thing is, my character most likely would be aware of the risk factors in reality. He would see the snow / ice thawing, feel the temperature to be above freezing, take note of the whole weather situation, remember the development of the past days / weeks and yes he'd also have the oppurtunity to check the ice thickness (which I know is not a feature in the game yet). He'd also have the whole body feeling of actually being on the ice. I as the player am sitting in a comfortable modern apartment at my computer, while the character I'm playing is a Finnish iron age tribesman out in the wilderness who's a lot more in touch with nature than I could ever be wouldn't he know this sort of thing? Unless the weather really suddenly turns a lot in a very short time I suppose. It could be skill dependent too.

Well, but I agree there could be more player-initiated means to check the ice. Maybe in some future version weatherlore or some other skill could be used to evaluate the ice thickness. I think that would be a realistic way, and leaving the decision up to the player.

Yes, I think that would solve the problem. In fact it would probably be the ideal solution. Until this system is fleshed out, you could make what you wrote earlier part of the tutorial and also write it down in the encyclopedia somewhere:

The ice thickness is tracked hour by hour, millimetre by millimetre. And in real life it also is so that after a freezing cold night the ice can be safe early in the morning, but becomes dangerous after noon, as they day gets warmer. These are things that the game can't so easily tell you beforehand, so we just have to assume that players pay special attention always when moving on ice, especially in autumn and springtime.

If you make it clear to the player somehow that travelling on ice when zoomed out does not mean it's completely safe even when the game doesn't force you to zoom in immediately, then you have eliminated the possible miscommunication. If players ignore it, that at least would be on them, not on you.

[Erkka]

Even when animals enter your field of view this happens, and that's in most cases far from being life or death. What's the logic behind this? It might be a bear that might try to kill you? You might be starving and desperate to hunt an animal? Well doesn't the same logic apply to freezing to death and unsafe ice because they're just as life-threatening? 

Hmm, to me it seems that the logic is the same. Travelling on the world map, you get zoomed in the moment there is an animal in the same map tile as you. But you are not given a notice two tiles beforehand, when your character does not have any direct evidence of an animal possibly being somewhere ahead.

Walking on ice you are given a notice the moment your character notices that ice has become dangerous, but you are not told two hours beforehand when your character thinks that there is increased likelihood that some time in the near future the ice could possibly maybe become dangerous.

But the thing is, my character most likely would be aware of the risk factors in reality. He would see the snow / ice thawing, feel the temperature to be above freezing, take note of the whole weather situation, remember the development of the past days / weeks and yes he'd also have the oppurtunity to check the ice thickness (which I know is not a feature in the game yet). He'd also have the whole body feeling of actually being on the ice. I as the player am sitting in a comfortable modern apartment at my computer, while the character I'm playing is a Finnish iron age tribesman out in the wilderness who's a lot more in touch with nature than I could ever be

There is the temperature gauge on the top-left corner of the screen. It also tells you if the sky is overcast or sunny. Now, as a player, it is up to you to pay a little attention. If it is spring time, if the temperature is above freezing, and especially if it is sunshine, that means ice conditions will deteriorate quickly.

But, yeah, now when you explain it I do realize that this indeed might not be so clear for players who don't have the real world experience. For us who have grown up with these things, it is about as clear as "oh, fire burns!" or "you get fatigued for running long distances carrying a lots of load". So, yeah, I understand that it would be heplful to have somekind of "newbie tutorial for urban people" which would give players more detailed instructions on basics of dealing with natural environment.

(Another thing might be just a question of getting used to the UI. I remember how, when I started learning to drive a car, I felt it rather demanding trying to distirbute my attention all over - how to keep my eyes on the road yet being constantly aware of what there is on the rear mirrors, what the speedometer says, and also fluently shifting the gears without looking at the gear stick. But after a few weeks I got used to it and nowadays all of that happens automatically without me thinking about it. I can imagine it might a same kind of process with game UI - while the main attention is on the map screen, being also aware of the temperature, the physical stats, the message box.)

Yes, I think that would solve the problem. In fact it would probably be the ideal solution. Until this system is fleshed out, you could make what you wrote earlier part of the tutorial and also write it down in the encyclopedia somewhere:

Ah, yes, improving the game encyclopedia is a constant major task, for there is so much information and sometimes we fail to predict what kind of information the players will need. (Another example is the handling of some mushroom. I, for one, grew up in a family where this was a routine every autumn. Some poisonous mushroom need to be boiled in water, and then the water is thrown away, as the mushroom are no more poisonous but the water is for that is where the poison went. Then we have seen some players being confused as the information said that a certain mushroom will be safe once boiled, and the player used raw mushroom as an ingredient in a stew, thinking that it will become safe as the stew is boiled. Sure, the mushroom becomes safe, but the stew itself becomes poisonous as the poison will remain in the liquid of the stew. Luckily, fellow players on forums are always there to help other players to better understand how these things work, in case we failed to explain it in detail in any of the in-game instructions.)

And what about you? Could you think of writing a small "some tips for newcomers and urban players" piece of instructions? Those can be posted in the tutorials section of the forums, and also added in the wiki.

If you make it clear to the player somehow that travelling on ice when zoomed out does not mean it's completely safe even when the game doesn't force you to zoom in immediately, then you have eliminated the possible miscommunication. If players ignore it, that at least would be on them, not on you.

I'm not sure what counts as "making it clear". I do understand that not many players browse through a text file inside the game folder, but this is what the news.txt says, searching for word "ice": (yes, a wall of text, I know. TLDR; "However, it should be noted that the ice can't never be trusted completely and even when you are allowed to travel on the ice on world map it can still break.")

* realistic modelling of ice and freezing of lakes

          Pretty much everything related to ice has been overhauled.
     Lakes start to freeze when the weather gets cold enough. This doesn't happen the same time every
          year, and the ice also doesn't grow equally thick every year. And when the lakes freeze, they
          now freeze gradually.

          - The ice cover first starts to build up at shallow water and proceeds towards deeper sections from there on.
            How fast the ice cover increases or decreases depends solely on the weather. Ice thickness can also vary at
            different sections of the lake. It's not anymore safe to walk on the ice as soon as there's ice cover on the
            lake. Thin ice can break under any load it can't hold - be it your character, NPCs, animals or items.

          - There's a confirmation to step on the ice if the character doubts the ice will hold. This applies to thin ice
            which characters can easily recognize by stomping on it to see if it cracks. Notice that even if there are no
            doubts and confirmations the ice still isn't necessarily safe to walk on.

          - It's not possible to travel on the ice on world map when the character doesn't trust the ice completely.
            If that's the case a message to zoom in to travel on the ice will be shown. This way the character
            can't mistakenly step on unreliable ice on world map. However, it should be noted that the ice can't
            never be trusted completely and even when you are allowed to travel on the ice on world map it can still
            break. Should this happen, the character is forced on zoomed in map where he/she needs to navigate to
            safe location.

        * falling through the ice

          - If you happen to fall through the ice climbing and pulling yourself back onto the ice is not easy and
            depends on your climbing skill, agility and strength. All of these factors are tested on each turn you try to
            move from the water onto the ice. Wielding any sharp pointy weapon such as knife, sword, spear or even an arrow
            will improve your chances to pull yourself out of the water. Swimming skill is also important as it determines
            for how long and how easily you can keep struggling in the water.

          - If you're unable to get out of the water after 5-10 minutes, you're almost certainly not going to get out.
            Your body temperature starts to drop as soon as you fall in the freezing water, and when hypothermia
            sets in you will eventually lose consciousness and drown. Depending on your swimming and climbing skills
            you will also build up certain amount fatigue on every turn you spend struggling in the water, and the more
            fatigued you get the lower your chances to pull yourself out become.

        * improved mechanics for making a hole in the ice

          - Time required to make a hole in the ice has been adjusted and now also depends on the ice thickness
            and the tool used. It's around 25 minute job to make a hole into half a meter thick ice
            with an axe. An inch thick ice can be broken in a minute or so. If the ice is very thin you can
            also break it without any tools.

          - When making a hole in the ice the best available tool is automatically selected. In addition to axes,
            spears and swords also stones and knives can be now used for breaking ice - even though they are quite
            unhandy for the job. The order of ice breaking tools from best to worst goes as: axe, spear, sword,
            knife, stone.

          - Holes in the ice will freeze back gradually and remain recognizable for a few days. Eventually
            the frozen holes will look like the regular ice cover, but may be weaker than the surrounding ice
            for some time. As holes in the ice won't freeze completely overnight it's now easier to maintain
            your wintertime water supply by breaking the same slightly frozen hole on a regular basis with only
            a little effort.
       
        * water temperature

          - Water temperature factor has been added, and it's precisely tracked thorough the year. It's not anymore
            always pleasant nor possible to swim for equally long time just about any day of the year.

          - Entering the water has faster effect on character's body temperature now. Even if you were feeling warm
            when going to swim in the cold water you'll get chilly or cold very soon. When the water is very warm
            you can spend hours in there without ill effects, but even if the lakes aren't frozen the water can still
            be so cold that there's a true risk of hypothermia. Needless to say, summer is best the season for longer
            swimming trips from now on.

          - If you are about to enter the cold water there's now always a confirmation if you really want to do so.
            It's still safe to swim in the cold water, but now you just may need to warm up properly afterwards
            to get comfortable again. However, entering the cold water when you are already freezing is not a
            wise move.

          - When looking at an adjacent water tile a message about the water temperature will be displayed.
            "The water is freezingly cold.","The water is very cold.","The water is rather warm." etc.

[PALU]

When it comes to the ice warning situation, I think an explicit ice probing action might be what's needed.
<Rapidly heading into the suggestion territory>
- To make it convenient to use, I'd allow ice probing to be performed both on the overland map in a tile adjacent to water, and on the zoomed in map adjacent to water. Obviously, probing rapids should result in completely unsafe ice conditions at all times...
- Any character would have sufficient knowledge to probe the ice's current conditions. I'd provide the results in the form of:
  - Completely unsafe. The ice will break if you try to step on it.
  - Very unsafe. The ice might not break, but probably will.
  - Unsafe.
  - Currently mostly safe at your current load, but may still break.
  - Currently safe at your current load.
  - Currently safe at your maximum load without skis.
  - Currently safe for a fully loaded large bull!
- Weather Lore would be used to make a 24 hour ice safety assessment:
  - Um, things change over time... < X%
  - The most I've ever known ice changing is to: <one of the above> < Y%
  - Given the current and predicted weather conditions, it should change to: <one of the above> at worst. >=Y %

Resulting in something like:
  - It's currently safe with my current load, but could change to completely unsafe within a day; or
  - All I know is that it's currently a bit risky with my current load. Who knows what the conditions will be tomorrow?
  - I can currently cross the ice safely at full load, and tomorrow I should be able to carry my current load, but not the maximum one.

I'd make the predictions conservative, i.e. err on the safe side, so someone with poor weather lore playing it safe would stop crossing the ice earlier than someone with experience. However, middle aged men and teenagers obviously know when safety limits are too conservative...

[Edico]

 I think the current system is fine; just be a little more cautious on the ice in spring and fall.

[The_Hobo]

Well i don't generally like blaming thing's on the player but there was a certain amount of negligence on your part. The whole point of this game is that it is up to you to judge whether an action is worth the risk or not. There are feedback mechanisms in place to give you the info you need. Obviously they aren't precise. People in Iron Age Finland would not have very precise tools to gauge things like ice depth or temperature. You could hack a hole in the ice and use the haft of your spear to measure maybe but at this point it feels sort of like splitting hairs. Honestly you can accomplish a similar effect by taking note of the season. For example if its early enough in fall or late enough in spring that a large lake (like 5 overworld tiles or more) is not completely frozen i don't usually mess with it. Another trick to use is to use L to look at an empty tile of snow and see how deep the snow is. It gives a good idea of how long the temps have consistently stayed below freezing. If it says calf deep or knee deep then i know its safe to travel the ice. Ive saved a couple characters from starvation in winter by carefully salvaging an elk that drowned when it fell through the ice and i knew i could make it back to land.

This happened because you travelled at a risky time of year and you assumed it was safe and travelled on the overworld which is a careless form of travel. It covers a lot of ground and the way i see it you weren't paying attention so your character wasn't and so you fell through and drowned. It isn't a cheap death it is a valuable lesson to be more cautious.

For diseases we don't really have an in depth system yet but you assume that all because there are micro-organisms that they must be pathenogenic (disease causing). Most bacteria are in fact harmless and even the ones that aren't have to be sufficient in numbers to overwhelm the immune system. Drinking untreated water is hardly a death sentence. In fact I do it all the time where i live and haven't once gotten sick. I live near the source in a cold and mostly untouched wilderness and i only drink fast running clear water. Tape worm is a product of eating raw meat.

Most of those water born illnesses thrive in much warmer climates and are a product of stagnation or improper waste management. Add to the fact that these people are native to the area and have fair immunity and its not unheard of for water born disease to be a rare thing.

If the game says you are very cold and you are noticing your temperature dropping quickly thats a very obvious sign that you should think about warming up soon. It doesn't take long to freeze especially scantily clad in north like that. People have died of hypothermia in much warmer temps than that. The game does give you that input but its up to you to notice and do something about it.

I do think it would be great to be able to repair cloth items but I get the impression that in the time this game is set the people only know how to make iron tools and that complex iron armor like lamellar or chain are imported from elsewhere in europe and traded for furs. It seems that the driik only have them because they trade with the foreign traders for them.

I guess my tips would be to treat the game with the same patience and caution you would in real life. You wouldn't just go leaping onto the ice would you? You would investigate first. So look at the snow. Cut a hole in the ice and see how long it takes. Does it take 5 mins? The ice is probably too thin then. A half an hour? Good lord that ice is thick.. i think ill haul my hungry ass out there for some trout fishing.

Not sure if the weather is safe for travel? Check it. Step outside your shelter or hut or cabin or kota and wait a few minutes and see how your temperature adjusts. Thats the games way of telling you what your character feels. Does your temp drop very quickly and how low does it go? Do you drop to cold in a few turns? Then its much too cold for long distance travel. Best to hold out until the weather improves.

As for cordage breaking when you smoke meats. I think that it should only degrade where a heat source is applied. A cord could easily be very brittle or even burnt after a long time spent above a fire, but if it just sat outside tied to your eaves all winter theres no reason it shouldn't be reusable. And i think that bandages should be able to be reused in minor to moderate injuries. If an injury is too severe like with a break, crush or deep wound then just the amount of time youd have to wear it and demanding lifestyle should be enough to destroy it.

If you are really looking for more ways to die we could always implement infection. Now that is a very real threat to someone in that time. Then all those antiseptic herbs would be more precious than ever. 

[Tom H]

My most annoying death so far was with a rather successful guy a few weeks in. I'd acquired some quality goods, had 3 bears and a few elk drying when, as I was traversing some forest I got a message saying I'd run into wolves. My only option was to go to the wilderness map and, BAM, there were several right next to me! One of them hit me immediately, inflicting some awful crippling wound that put me down. Worse, I was unable to stand.

Yeah, I know. Wolves are bad news. There was just no options for me because they were right next to me. Sad..heh