[let it be] Skins

[Acolyte]

Not sure if it's a bug, but it takes 4lbs of leather to make a .3lbs item. Is there a decimal missing?
   - Shane

[PALU]

Are you talking about a mod? 4.0 -> 0.3 sounds like a lot, so you should probably describe what reaction it is.

Note that UrW is quirky in that in rounds everything UP, so 1.01 lbs of leather is displayed as 2 lbs, and a distance of 3.1 km is displayed as 4 km. Also, if the excess is small enough, it may not result in a remaining fractional item.

[Ametsala]

I believe Acolyte's talking about 0.3 lbs waterskin needing 4 lbs of leather to make. Here's how it is in vanilla diy_glossary.txt:

Code: [Select]

.Skin. [effort:1] [phys:hands]  *COMMON* /120/ %40%
{Leather} #4# [remove]
{Knife}
{Tying equipment} [remove]

It is probably a bug. I can't imagine where the remaining 3.7 lbs of leather goes...

[JEB Davis]

And likewise, it's hard to imagine an empty water skin weighing 4 pounds. There would be some leather wasted in the process of cutting it to shape, so perhaps requiring 3 pounds to construct, and weighing 1 to 2 pounds when finished might be better.

[Acolyte]

I believe Acolyte's talking about 0.3 lbs waterskin needing 4 lbs of leather to make. Here's how it is in vanilla diy_glossary.txt:

Code: [Select]

.Skin. [effort:1] [phys:hands]  *COMMON* /120/ %40%
{Leather} #4# [remove]
{Knife}
{Tying equipment} [remove]

It is probably a bug. I can't imagine where the remaining 3.7 lbs of leather goes...

Yep, that's the one. I probably should have been more clear in the OP. 

Also requires 0.5lbs of cord - more than the final item. If that's just to close off the bag that's quite a bit, but if it's also a shoulder strap.... well pretty reasonable, actually. Given the skin holds 2.5 liters of water or so (5lbs) I can see the weight being upped a little. But 4.5lbs of material for a 0.3lb item seems a little much unless you're thinning the leather, too.

   - Shane

[GiTiB]

In my opinion it is not a bug, crafting a skin is a bit of a milestone toward civilisation, and if it was not 4lbs of leather you would only need to salvage some boots to do it, way too easy.

[Ametsala]

I did some calculations on how much the leather in a 5 lbs holding waterskin would weigh. I assumed a full waterskin would be a sphere, and used the apparent density of chestnut tanned leather I found in this article, which is 0.72 g/cm³. I converted the lbs to kilograms using both the standard lbs->kg ratio of 0.453 and the old Finnish one of 0.425 lbs to kg.

From the results, a 0.3 lbs waterskin with volume for 5 lbs of water would be made of 2 mm thick leather. (The leather weighing 0.27 lbs as standard pounds, 0.28 lbs as Finnish pounds.) The weight increases by about 0.15 lbs for each additional mm of leather thickness. (Averages for the first 10 mm of leather were 0.1417 lbs/mm for the standard pound and 0.1450 lbs/mm for the old Finnish pound.)

I don't know much about leather crafting, but  I'd expect a leather waterskin to be made of leather between 2-5 mm thick, meaning the leather of an empty UrW waterskin would have a weight of 0.3-0.75 lbs. Considering that a waterskin would not be a perfect sphere, and it would have a cork and a strap, I'd expect the game's waterskin to weigh between 0.5-1.0 lbs when empty, depending on what thickness the leather is supposed to be.

I don't expect crafting the skin requiring much more leather than it weighs. The extra leather cuts can be used to make a strap. (Maybe the recipe doesn't not need tying equipment at all... Just assume that it's made from the leather while crafting the skin.)

I also read somewhere that the Sami people used to make waterskins out of reindeer leather. Maybe the game's waterskins are based on those, but I don't have a clue what those look like or how they were made.

@GiTiB: Coming up with 4 lbs of leather isn't that difficult either, and a skin isn't that useful of an item. I always make one, but rarely use one.

[GiTiB]

I aggree with you Ametsala it is not so usefull but in my imagination a true adventurer must have a knife, a handaxe and a skin and you should put a minimum effort in becoming one.

[Acolyte]

I did some calculations on how much the leather in a 5 lbs holding waterskin would weigh. I assumed a full waterskin would be a sphere, and used the apparent density of chestnut tanned leather I found in this article, which is 0.72 g/cm³. I converted the lbs to kilograms using both the standard lbs->kg ratio of 0.453 and the old Finnish one of 0.425 lbs to kg.

From the results, a 0.3 lbs waterskin with volume for 5 lbs of water would be made of 2 mm thick leather. (The leather weighing 0.27 lbs as standard pounds, 0.28 lbs as Finnish pounds.) The weight increases by about 0.15 lbs for each additional mm of leather thickness. (Averages for the first 10 mm of leather were 0.1417 lbs/mm for the standard pound and 0.1450 lbs/mm for the old Finnish pound.)

I don't know much about leather crafting, but  I'd expect a leather waterskin to be made of leather between 2-5 mm thick, meaning the leather of an empty UrW waterskin would have a weight of 0.3-0.75 lbs. Considering that a waterskin would not be a perfect sphere, and it would have a cork and a strap, I'd expect the game's waterskin to weigh between 0.5-1.0 lbs when empty, depending on what thickness the leather is supposed to be.

I don't expect crafting the skin requiring much more leather than it weighs. The extra leather cuts can be used to make a strap. (Maybe the recipe doesn't not need tying equipment at all... Just assume that it's made from the leather while crafting the skin.)

I also read somewhere that the Sami people used to make waterskins out of reindeer leather. Maybe the game's waterskins are based on those, but I don't have a clue what those look like or how they were made.

@GiTiB: Coming up with 4 lbs of leather isn't that difficult either, and a skin isn't that useful of an item. I always make one, but rarely use one.

I think you are more or less correct. I don't currently have the right kind of leather right now or I'd make one. I've got 8oz and above for armour making so too heavy. Maybe I'll make a 2l bottle carrier - it should be similar in size but probably a little too heavy. I was planning on making one anyways and I kind of like the chunky style it'd have.

Now, here's the part where I play devils advocate for myself - what if all you had was cowhide (thick) when what you needed was grouse leather (thin)? You'd have to split the leather, keeping the top grain (outside part) for the skin because most of the strength is in that part. You might just have to take an 8 oz piece and split it down to 2 oz leather and 6oz suede which is not that good for much. So maybe taking a 4lbs piece and turning it into a 1lbs piece before then making the skin.

Not really sure.
   - Shane

[Sami]

I really have no strict opinion on this, but it's not a bug per se, and we'll let it be for now.
Luckily people can adjust the recipe according to their needs / thoughts / feelings.
If we start adjusting the skin properties at some point making a real waterproof drinking skin should also be a lot more demanding than it currently is.