[not a bug] sacrificing dried fish pleases the forest, not the water

[Plotinus]

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(AB5700):a2j9:[+]{07A9064B}      | You gently set the dried lynx cut on the ground as a sacrifice.
(143270):a2j9:[#]{07A9064B}      | You feel comfortable.
(AB5700):a2ja:[+]{07A9064B}      | You gently set the dried bream on the ground as a sacrifice.
(143270):a2ja:[#]{07A9064B}      | You feel a bit unsteady.
(AB5700):a2ja:[+]{07AA064B}      | You gently set the trout on the ground as a sacrifice.
(143270):a2ja:[#]{07AA064B}      | You feel comfortable.



[davidor]

Did you caught some fish?
It seems after 3.51 now you can perform 4 types of general sacrifices:
1. common sacrifice
2. silver on ant nest
3. sacrifice of fresh butchered
4. sacrifice of fresh fish

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- fixed: only one sacrifice allowed per day

        If any kind of sacrifice to any spirit was performed even the different kind of sacrifices during the
        same day were considered excess. This was not intentional, and is now fixed back to normal:
        You can perform multiple sacrifices on daily basis as long as they are targeted at different
        spirits, ie. forest or water spirit, or if the act of sacrificing is a part of unique spell.
I think not making sacrifice is the reason of "The waters around feel extremely hostile to you." not overfishing

[PALU]

I was under the impression that you only have 3 standard (general) sacrifices:
1. Meat to the forest spirit
2. Fish to the water spirits
3. Silver on an ant hill

In addition to this there are some special cases (such as first catch of the season, game course of iron weapon sacrifice, and sacrificial of bread [which I've never performed]).

However, I haven't tried to perform a butcher sacrifice after a "normal" forest spirit one in the morning.

[Plotinus]

I did catch fish. I sacrificed some dried meat, got "you feel comfortable" so it was accepted. then i sacrificed some dried fish, got "you feel unsteady" -- the message you get when you try to do the same sacrifice again, then I sacrified some raw fish and got "you feel comfortable" which proves that the dried fish sacrifice didn't count towards the water spirits.

I think the dried meat sacrifice counted towards the forest spirits but I'll check:

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(AB5700):t2jj:[+]{07A9064B}      | You gently set the dried lynx cut on the ground as a sacrifice.
(143270):t2jj:[#]{07A9064B}      | You feel at ease.
(AB5700):t2jj:[+]{07A9064B}      | You gently set the fox cut on the ground as a sacrifice.
(143270):t2jj:[#]{07A9064B}      | You feel a bit unsteady.

so dried lynx cut and fresh fox cut sacrifice to the same spirits
and dried fish and fresh meat sacrifice to the same spirits

but dried fish and fresh fish sacrifice to different spirits

[JEB Davis]

This makes sense to me because when a fish is first caught is when I think the sacrifice would be meaningful to the water spirits, rather than many days later after the fish is dried. Besides, water spirits are wet and dried fish has no water in it, so it may be insulting to the spirits to give it back to them in that condition.

For similar reasons, it would make sense to me if NO dried fish or meat was acceptable to ANY spirit. I could see any spirit being insulted by dried flesh. 

"Why did you wait so long to say thank you to me for this beautiful animal you took away from my domain?" or "What have you done to the juicy, blood-filled flesh of my creature, you defiler!"

[Plotinus]

I guess that make sense, but then dried meat shouldn't count the same as fresh meat.

[PALU]

I killed an elk today and decided to try to sacrifice after butchering (having performed a daily sacrifice that happened to be smoked meat, in the morning), and the result was "feeling a bit unsteady". Thus, I conclude there is no such thing as a kill sacrifice anymore.

[davidor]

Interesting, can confirm the same thing, but the new encyclopedia entry suggest there is a sacrifice for "right after killing a significiant game animal". It could also be the problem of lacking other spells as there is the line

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When combined with detailed instructions of other known spells, the general sacrifice becomes more specialized, offering to a named spirit for a specific purpose.

[PALU]

Interesting, can confirm the same thing, but the new encyclopedia entry suggest there is a sacrifice for "right after killing a significiant game animal". It could also be the problem of lacking other spells as there is the line

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When combined with detailed instructions of other known spells, the general sacrifice becomes more specialized, offering to a named spirit for a specific purpose.

Well, I don't know of any additional rituals making use of the general sacrifice, but I also know my current, rather long lived, character doesn't have all the rituals (and the latest quest actually gave the rather handy blood staunching incantation). Perhaps the entry is either made in preparation for new rituals, or refers to the silver sacrifice one?

[Plotinus]

I think the bit about the fresh kill doesn't actually mean that the thing you sacrifice has to be from a freshly killed animal, at least not the way things are coded right now. I think what it means is "if you don't perform a sacrifice soon after killing an animal, the gods will get mad at you."

I think that right now there are different buckets of items: [dried fish, dried meat, smoked fish, smoked meat, roasted fish, roasted meat, raw meat] are in one bucket, [raw fish] is in another bucket, and [silver] is in a third bucket. When you sacrifice an item, it looks up which bucket the item is in and adjusts your relationship with the spirits according to the rules for that bucket.

Separately, there are different buckets of actions: [fishing] is in one bucket, doing it lowers your relationship with the water spirits. [killing big animals, letting big animal carcasses rot in your traps, just taking the skins and not using the meat, excess trapping, excess felling trees] are conjectured to be in another bucket. doing those things lowers your relationship with the forest spirits.

Probably the rituals where you ask for something also affect your relationship with the spirits -- before we had spells, anyway, asking too much made them angry. so probably some more buckets for rituals where they adjust your relationship up or down based on a bunch of factors.

Whenever you do a thing, it figures out whether your relatinoship with the spirit should go up or down by checking what bucket the thing you've done is in.


tl;dr:
So what I was initially arguing was that dried/smoked/cooked fish does not belong in the same bucket as meat, but in the water bucket. You guys have convinced me that actually dried/smoked/cooked food probably doesn't belong in either the forest spirit bucket or the water spirit bucket, but maybe in some generic third bucket.

[Plotinus]

Intresting news: Sacrificing roasted meat doesn't count for the "Spell" task in the tutorial, so more evidence that you guys are right that cooked meat isn't meant to count as a sacrifice.

So in this case the bug is the "you feel comfortable" message after sacrificing roast meat followed by "you feel unsteady" message after sacrificing raw meat.

[Sami]

Hmm. What can I say, except that after some considerations I don't find anything to fix at this point. Sacrifices are something that we don't have a definite rulebook to rely on, and actually trying to comprehend old finnish mythology ie. sacrifices often leaves me with a questions like "How come it's good to sacrifice that in this situation? I'm confused."

What I can say, though, is that freshness of the sacrifice is relevant in some cases - and in case of fishing sacrifices, that is pretty much a must. (Like speculated)

So in this case the bug is the "you feel comfortable" message after sacrificing roast meat followed by "you feel unsteady" message after sacrificing raw meat.

I can't pinpoint a bug here either, although the exact order of the events is unknown. 
To mix you guys up even more I can also reveal that roasted meat can be a good and solid sacrifice sometimes, and if the (forest) spirit at the location felt you were in debt it could be happily accepted.