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Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
While things you said about history are true, saying that you are not a historian just because you can code a historical game is a huge understatement to the devs imo. This game is under development for 25+ years. The devs are also very much interested in the folklore, history of the proposed timeline and place. You can defend the world you created by just saying that "I wanted it this way.", now I am not saying this is how Erkka and Sami are thinking but the novgorod situation is just silly IMO. I don't really understand what you really want by historical accuracy. Do you want the njerpez to completely eliminate eastern tribes as the time goes on? Do you want njerpez in Seal tribe areas? To me, it is still a high history simulation. Just because you can't find real life representation of a tribe doesn't mean that the game is fantasy and the time and location should be changed or so. Unreal World, at least right now, is more concerned with you and the nature rather than historical relations about the tribes within the game. August 24, 2020, 12:53:06 PM |
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Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
If the game change log said: "Based on historical references it has now been verified that The Novgrod Russians never did thing X, and therefore in this game release The Njerpez also don't do thing X" then all the questions and arguments by user1805 would be highly on-point. But, at the moment to me it seems that user1805 just slightly misinterpreted what Sami meant to say in the game change log. I believe Sami meant only to say that "It is intended that Njerpez behave in a way X, and it has now been verified that they really do X in the game." Then, of course we can have another discussion about if Njerpez should behave this or that way based on fully accurate historical facts about Novgorod Russians. But, to me that seems to miss the point. The game doesn't claim to be 100% historically accurate. Many things are simulated based on historical facts, but not all the things need to be so. Especially the tribes, they contain a lot of artistic freedom. Therefore the game creator can say that "in the fantasy world I created the element X behaves in a way Y because I wanted it that way", and I find it hard for anyone else to counter that. Like, can anyone say that "I don't believe you imagined it that way, you need to imagine it some other way!". I always thought that the very essence of imagination is that anyone can imagine the way they do. August 24, 2020, 01:01:27 PM |
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Re: "The Challenge"
Day 8 38% injured, 19% starved Continuing around the lake, I found a mountain. Now I'm "near eastern Sartola." I guess I'll continue around this lake till I get to some hills and then go west to the next mountain. Continuing around the lake, I see a forest reindeer carcass in the ice. I'm going to go get it, but first I'm going to pull a trunk to the shore and light it on fire because the water is very cold. Miraculously, I didn't fall through the ice. With the stone knife I was able to get 29 cuts of meat from the forest reindeer carcass, which will keep me fed for a while. I roast only 10 of the meat cuts because the stale timer resets when you roast them and I want to be able to eat all of them before they spoil. Day 9 33% injured, 19% starved I wake up and my tanning forest reindeer hide is ready to be picked up, my fire is burnt down to embers. I pick it up and go back on my way. I'm going to wait until I'm cold again to do more tanning, I don't have time to waste. I reach the next mountain but I don't see any other mountains. There's a lake to the west so I'm going to head towards that. Going to go around it, then when I hit the lichenous pine forest west of the lake, I'm going to go west to the next lake and then go around that. We'll see. Again I leave 3 spruce twigs by the lake to mark my place so if I see it again I'll know I've gone all the way around. I need to pay more attention when circling around the ice, I keep walking onto the ice and falling through, but while warming up by a fire I finish tanning my 9 lb forest reindeer fur. Next time I light a fire I'll make some clothes but now I'm going to sleep. Day 10 27% injured, 12% starved Continuing around the lake. I reach my spruce twigs again so now I'm just going to go west. I find a large lichenous pine forest area with a hill and explore around it but don't find any mountains so I go west some more. Eventually, I find a lake and drop some branches and start a circle around it. Found a mountain by exploring a lichenous pine forest but it's too dark to see very much 'm going to head north to a lake and then come back in the morning. I wake up in the snow so I make a shirt and then go back to sleep. Day 11 24% injured, 12% starved From the mountain, if I go south one tile then east to the lake, then due south I'll hit another mountain. I'm now "Near Sartola" so maybe I'm not heading in the right idrection but we'll see. From this mountain if I go southwest till I hit the lake then follow it clockwise then I'll hit another mountain. While going around that lake I found a squirrel so I took some time to throw rocks at it. At the mountain, I see that if I continue along this lake I'll hit a river. rivers are great. There are often villages along rivers, and there may be other mountains by the river later, and it will also lead to the sea. If I hit the sea, I'll continue south until I find another river and then go along it until I get to a lake and then go around the south side of the river. I think this is the best path to finding a village. Another option, if I get lucky with finding more mountains, is to pay attention to when I stop being "Near Sartola" and see if I reach sartola proper, then if I pass through Sartola and come out the other side I could turn around and weave back and forth through sartola until I find a village. I spend some time gathering heathers but I get cold so I light a fire for the night and skin and butcher my squirrel carcass. Day 12 18% injured, 10% starved Continuing along the river. I've come across a lot of fords but I haven't crossed any of them. I encounter a lichenous pine forest and veer away from the river to explore it and am rewarded with a hill, and eventually a mountain. The mountain turns out to be bordering the same river i was following so i would've found it anyway. It's late afternoon now so I'll head back to the water and light a fire and make some fur footwear with the rest of my forest reindeer fur and squirrel fur. Day 13 15% injured, 3% starved Well I'm in Sartola now and it's snowing a lot. Next mountain: follow river to the rapids, then continue following the river west until it turns to the south, then head straight south to the mountain. Still in Sartola! And if I had south from here I'll hit another river and there's a mountain, i just go south to the water, west to the hill, north to the lichenous pine forest, west to the mountain. From here, south to the river and there will be some more mountains along the river. Followed this chain of mountains and now I can see this river joins the one above it to the west of me so I want to go back the way I came and around it to continue along its south bank, or maybe venture across one of the fords. It turned out there was a ford just south of the cliff so I lay down and inched my way across the surface. Success! The ice didn't break. But I forgot to look where the mountains on the south side of the river are so back to the cliff. Looks like if I go to one tile east of the second rapids and then south I'll find a mountain. Looks like there's a river south of me too but I don't see any other mountains yet. I'm going to go back the way I came and continue west along the river. Day 14 13% injured, 0% starved I reached a mountain at the end of the yesterday and camped with a fire. Now it's morning and zoomed out I see I am once again "Near Sartola", so I will go southeast to the next river and head back east through Sartola until I reach the other side again. Spent the day heading east along the river, nothing of note happened. Day 15 12% injured, 0% starved Almost out of food again, but it'll be a month till I starve. Found some more mountains. The next one is just east of the second rapids and north from there. And then back south to the river, follow it to the hill, then two tiles northeast of the hill. and then back to the hill, and the one tile west and a bunch of tiles north. Going east to the lake for the night and going to view this mountain again in the morning. Day 16 11% injured, 0% starved Headed back to the river. The next mountain is south of the river, one tile west of the rapids and a few tiles south but it looks like the river is ending in a small lake soon so maybe I'll get there via ford or maybe i'll get there by going around. Day 17 8% injured, 0% starved Starting to starve again. I'm in Southern Sartola and I don't see any other mountains from this one so I'm just going to keep heading west along the south side of this river. I've been carrying a rock equipped and throwing it at any bird I see and finally got lucky. Day 18 7% injured, 0% starved continuing around the river. Day 19 5% injured, 3% starved continuing around the river. Thoroughly explored a large lichenous pine forest but no luck this time. Finally found a mountain and I've passed through Sartola again so going to head north back to the river, spend the night, and try going east again. Managed to catch a pike with a rock! Day 20 4% injured, 4% starved From here I should go east to one tile east of the hills, then south to the next hill, then east to the next mountain. And then one tile east and a few tiles south. And then one tile east and 2 north. From here I don't see any mountains so I'm just going to east and hope for the best. No mountains, but I did finally find a bit of water so I'll camp here for the night and then circumambulate it. Day 21 2% injured, 0% starved The ground goes up quite steeply just a little bit around the lake so I follow it, find a hill, follow that, find a mountain and now I know I'm back in Southern Sartola and I have some more mountains to check out. Next is one tile north and a few to the east. I see a field to the north! I don't see a village but where there's a field there's a village. So if I go straight north until I hit the lichenous pine forest, then straight west until I hit the hill, then from the hill I go north one tile to the lichenous pine forest, north one tile to the heathland and then I go west from there. Once I hit the field I don't know, I guess I'll go west for a bit, say 5 tiles, then 1 tile north and 8 tiles east and 1 tile north and 8 tiles west again -- or we'll see. I found a road and then I followed along it and then I saw dog tracks and then I found a village. So from here on out it'll be smooth sailing. Now I help a villager out with some chores and hopefully get a better knife out of it. While I was wandering around, I was collecting feathers when I saw them so I'm going to make some arrows to sell. Day 22 0% injured, 2% starved Unfortunately, I didn't have enough feathers to make enough arrows to get a broad knife, even with my reward. I borrowed a fine axe in the village to make a wooden bowl so I can carry some water around with me, and a wooden shovel in case I wasn't too late for digging but it is. I guess my next step is to make a trap fence without pit traps, I'll buy a leather rope from the village so I can make a stone axe and a bear trap for my trap fence. August 25, 2020, 05:34:12 PM |
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Re: "The Challenge"
key ideas: * pick a direction. East is probably bad because you might wind up north of njerpez territory where there's nothing. North can be good because there are lots of mountains so it'll be easy to find one and easy to go from mountain to mountain, but it can be harder to find water, and northern villages don't have fields or roads between them so it can be harder to stumble on one. This is offset by the more mountains I guess. South can be good because there's lots of water and you're basically guaranteed to hit a river eventually. West can be good, you'll probably hit a river or the sea. * pay attention to the terrain. If it's sloping down, follow it to find water. You can drink water in pine mires and open mires safely. Get some cloudberries early on (spruce mire, pine mire, open mire), but use them for security as a last resort -- if you're too thirsty to stand, you'll have them. If you eat them when you're only a little thirsty and then you find some water soon, then the berries are gone. I still have my berries by the time reach the village. You probably don't need more than 5 lb of berries and you're in a race against time with the cold. * rivers and lakes are your friend, especially early on. It's pretty common for animals to misjudge the ice. If you explore all rivers and lakes thoroughly, you might find one dead animal per season like I did, more if it's a herd animal * when the land slopes up, explore thoroughly to find a mountain. once you find a mountain, you can bounce from mountain to mountain for a while if you pay attention to where you have to go. * whenever you're cool, start looking for a tree trunk and light a fire. * pick a direction and stick to it, but once you find your way into a cultural territory, if you pass through it to the other side, try to turn around and pass through it in a snake S part, sooner or later you'll find a road. * don't waste time fishing; it's really hard with a rock and you're in a race against time, but it's okay to fish a little if you wake up in the middle of the night and you want to wait until morning to start moving again, because you might get lucky. August 25, 2020, 05:41:02 PM |
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Re: "The Challenge"
Day 26 0% injured, 8% starved In the past few days I've made 16 fences and 1 light lever trap, which caught a raven in my trap so I'm going to make some more arrows and then hang out in the village making more wooden stakes because it takes forever in the cold with having to light fires all the time. Day 33 0% injured, 33% starved My trap fence now has 1 light lever trap, 1 bear trap, and 1 small deadfall trap with 8 fences between each. I'm going to visit another village now. I wound up buying another leather rope but I can't really afford anything else. Day 40 0% injured, 47% starved My trap fence now also has a large deadfall trap. I'm going back to a village now and goint to make some 48 wooden stakes and then my fence will be done. I am starting to get concerned about the starvation, next goal is a fishing rod. Got the branches quest, maybe I'll finally get a broad knife at this village. Success! It took ten squirrel hides worth a reward (it was the same village I got my last quest from), 16 rough arrows, and 1 arrow, but it was worth it. Day 42 0% injured, 52% starved I spent a couple days visiting some other villages in hopes of finding a fishing rod. Then when I got back to my trap fence, I found an elk in my bear trap! I'm saved! Day 47 0% injured, 39% starved I made an overcoat and leggings out of the elk fur and have dried most of the meat and roasted the rest. I'm exploring a new village now, still hoping for a fishing rod. I made notes of what items the village has for later but nothing I can buy now. Now that I'm a bit better equipped with furs, I'm going to take a trip down south because there will definitely be fishing rods in islander villages and sometimes islander territory extends onto the mainland. Also, the ice is thick enough now that it's safe to cross it. Day 51 0% injured, 20% starved I had to visit 2 villages in islander territory but I did find a fishing rod. The islander adventurer only wanted one rough arrow for it so that's pretty good. I'm out of food again but I'm going to be just fine. I think I'll start trying to build a house very slowly, still with my stone axe, but doing quests religiously every 14 days so that I can try to get some rewards and a better axe. Also, I'll check my trap fence everyday and reset them until I get a skill up. You can get 3 skill ups per skill per day but I'm not in that much of a hurry. Day 63 0% injured, 31% starved I got another quest 8 days ago and got a reward at the village that has the masterwork handaxe. With the arrows I've made, I have almost enough to buy it but not quite. I've mostly been working on training up trapping, but I just happened on a fatigued badger so i followed him till he was breathless and killed him. My dried elk will be ready in about a week, too. I made some badger mittens out of the badger, and also a fur hood out of the rest of the badger and a little bit of my overcoat. As you can see from my starvation, I'm not spending all that much time fishing -- only when I'm cold and waiting by the fire. Otherwise I'm training trapping up and moving logs from my trapping area to where my home will be -- this is less efficient than just chopping them down at my new home but I find it relaxing. Day 68 15% injured, 27% starved Had a few really cold days and I got a bit frostbit so i've just been sitting by a fire and fishing until this cold snap ends, couldn't venture away from my fire long enough to do much else. Just got a squirrel today. I think I1ll make it (and a little bit more of my overcoat) into a cap. Tomorrow I'll check the village again for another quest and by the time I got home i'll have some dried elk cuts ready. Day 69 15% injured, 28% starved Wounded adventurer quest! He says it's in a lichenous pine forest with a heathland south of that so real easy. The reward is a treasure in a cave (yay no digging) in Fallencliff in southeast Sartola. Great. I could have just kept his woodsman's axe which would have been really useful to me right now but I'm betting that the treasure in the cave better. Day 70 15% injured, 28% starved There's an escaping small bear in this cave but I'm really determined to get the reward so i'm just going to try to avoid it. 1 masterwork trident, 2 masterwork angos, masterwork leather shoes, masterwork fur footwear, 2 masterwork leather boots, 4 superior winter elk furs, 1 bronze flower-ornamented comb. I safely avoided the bear. On my way home, I take a break to sit by a fire and craft a cloak. Normally this would be a waste of a superior fur because they are very valuable for trading and the best cloak you can make is just decent, but I want to be able to light fewer fires. I'm also going to repair my other clothes that I had previously cannibalised a bit to make more clothes sooner than I had new furs for. Day 71 14% injured, 25% starved Traded my elk fur cap, 5 rough arrows and 11 arrows (and my 7 squirrel hides reward) for a masterwork handaxe. life is going to be good from now on. Day 79 15% injured, 0% starved checking my traps i find a badger, and while processing it, a bull elk, and while processing that, an eagle owl. day 84 13% injured, 0% starved Finished processing all of those animals, went to a village, got the forest spirits quest, so I guess my next goal is to find some silver but it's not a very high priority goal; i want to build a small sauna. day 91 10% injured, 0% starved It's the start of Pearl month now, February. I have built two walls and a door so far of my sauna. I'll put this aside now and play some more another day. August 27, 2020, 08:28:34 PM |
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Re: "The Challenge"
Day 101 14% injured, 0% starved Checking out a new village in case they have any silver. Day 102 14% injured, 0% starved Checked another village, this one had the robber's quest. I accepted it but I am probably going to let it lapse. Returned home, found a glutton in my traps. Day 114 13% injured, 0% starved Finished my 1x2 sauna. Day 119 10% injured, 0% starved Visited some villages in driik, didn't find any silver but did get a travelling companion quest. Luckily, my character is actually is Sartolanian so it's going to be easy to take him to a village. Day 123 7% injured, 0% starved Traded 10 lb of superior elk fur for a perfect shovel. I'm going to go find the island where the reward from the travelling companion quest is, though I can't dig it yet of course. Day 141 0% injured, 0% starved Visited a new village, got the branches quest, bought some rye grains and flax seeds. The flax does rely on a mod but winter will be over by the time i plant them, and the OP says that's okay after winter. It's late soil month right now so I'm almost there. I still have 7 cloudberries left from way back at the beginning. I've been using them to bait my traps slowly and replacing them as they get eaten but soon it will be swidden and they'll go stale and I'll eat the rest of them. Day 153 0% injured, 0% starved It's Swidden (April) now. I have been building a little cabin just a few steps away from the sauna, mostly for lack of other things to do. The snow is thigh deep still and I'm checking everyday [alt-a s] to see if I can start preparing a little field yet or not, but it's not yet. I guess I should gather up my furs and wander around looking for travelling traders to get some silver, or failing that, explore the driik villages until I find one. The robbers quest did expire, I never went looking for them. August 30, 2020, 03:09:33 PM |
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Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
Ilyich79, purely out of respect to our hosts here, I will not respond to you in the same tone as you phrased your post. Instead, I'll again politely direct you towards historical sources that were not methodically tailored to fit this or that Moskovia's ruler's ambitions. If you do not like to use the "enemies" sources, although Vatican and Byzantine clerks are world famous for their records (even to the point of being overly verbose and waaaay to detailed), please feel free to use the sources from your friends. Oh wait.... Well, use some other sources that can be cross-referenced with at least one other. Once you do, please share it and I'll gladly hear an alternative version of what happened to Novgorod. While you are at it, look up what happened to Tatarian Kazan after moskovit's conquest. Or Ukrainian Baturyn. BTW, the nickname qaṣṣāb, that surviving Kazan's population gave the invaders, still used in countries bordering today's Moskovia. Do spend some time and ponder why is that.You can respond in any tone you find suitable for the Russian barbarian. We long ago got used to all of them. Okay. Now I have a master's degree in Sociology, so I guess I know a bit or two about world history and specifically European history. Oh, but it may be that I read wrong books. All the Russian annals are tailored. All ours archeological finds are forged. It's a given fact, you do not even have to prove that. Of course it would be pointless to try and tell you, for example, what happened to Russian towns and villages after raids of Khazan, Astrakhan, Crimean and other Khans from the shatters of Golden Horde. You already know that it is written in the wrong books. May be to your surprise, I won't deny what happened to Novgorod (an Tver, and others for that matter). You see, in the Middle Ages countries fought. There was such things as a feudal strife and territorial conflicts. And it was ugly. Look up what Ottomans did with the towns they conquered. Look up what did Transylvanians, Franks, Romans, Poles. But of course for you they all are white and fluffy, only Muscovites (that's how it is spelled, by the way) are bloothirsty tyrants. Because so it is written in the right books. To me, it all looks like a clear example of double standards - typical for modern Western world, as I said earlier. With this said, I rest my case. August 31, 2020, 03:30:25 PM |
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Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
I'm sorry Erkka, if I was of any inconvenience. I'll try to explain my feelings.BTW, Novgorod AND Moskovits were always aggravating everyone around them. At least till Moskovits conquered Novgorod and performed local genocide by killing most of the males novgorodians and mostly only raping females, after that it was only Moskovits. So its a small wonder they were so inspirational for creating this fictional culture.Red color by me. First of the redded lines is wildly historical innacurate, but let's assume that it is. So the game fraction of mindless killers is based on Novgorodians, as you, Erkka said yorself. Okay. (I myself have absolutely no problem with that, by the way) Then where from the Muscovites came to Dark Art's posts? Where the logic in this? If Novgorodians were such a bloodthirsty people, may be it was good thing when Moscow conquered Novgorod? But no, according to Dark Art, he just unites them with Novgorodians and proclaims them also (and more) inspirational for such a fraction. It seems to me that for comrade Dark Art all the Russians are like spiders in the box, eating one another until the strongest will survive and then the strongest will feel free to raid and kill his neighbours. Which all of them are very peaceful - because I think, it is clear without explanation, that you can aggravate only peaceful nations - if it is not peaceful that would be defence, not aggravation. please feel free to use the sources from your friends. Oh wait....So from this we see, that Russia (Dark Art means Moscow Russia, I guess) had no friends (it is not a historical truth also, but meh, okay). Like a bully in a class where all the other students are ... white and fluffy? BTW, the nickname qaṣṣāb, that surviving Kazan's population gave the invaders, still used in countries bordering today's Moskovia. Do spend some time and ponder why is that.I know that in the Middle Ages many of the European nations were very warlike. Many of them warred between each other, as I said before, during times of feudal strife or in the territorial conflicts. Many of them performed raids for plunder and slaves, like, for example (just an example!) Golden Horde. AFAIK Moscow Russia never performed slavery raids, in fact, there never was slavery in Moscow Russia (there was peasant serfdom, but it is another matter entirely). Novgorod and Tver were razed (not once) during feudal strifes between Russian knyazes. Khazan and Astrakhan were conquered (much later then the Iron Age, BTW) as a part of Moscow expansion to the south and also to protect southern russian borders from ... surprise-surprise, plunder and slavery raids by Khans. So I pondered and the only explanation that came to mind, is that Dark Art somehow distingiushes Muscovites from all the European nations as the most inspirational for creating Njerpezit fraction - from this thought (okay, I can admit that it is in part a surmise) came all my words. P.S. Especially for comrade Dark Art I will say also that I base my knowledge not only on schoolbooks, but on vast book and internet reading, not only in Russian language. Edit: Just to clarify - I never, ever claimed that only Muskovites exclusively were commuting atrocities. Thats just nonsense. Wars are never pretty. We were discussing the nature of fictional Njerpez and user1805 got all hot and bothered by the fact that Novgorod was primary inspiration for their creation.I hear you and if I was somewhat rude, I would like to apologize. And to some extent I agree that some of Russian annals written in tsarist time are not a very reliable sources. Nevertheless, I mean every word written above. And in the modern Russian historiology we do not fully rely on mentioned sources. August 31, 2020, 05:53:55 PM |
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Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
Quote and user1805 got all hot and bothered by the fact that Novgorod was primary inspiration for their creation. It is my understanding that this thread leans a bit more to the funnier side. For user1805 didn't get upset about Novgorod being used as the source of inspiration - user1805 got upset about half-educated indie game creators carelessly throwing around claims like "it is now verified that thing X is a historical fact", and was like "how the hell do THEY think they know that?" Which, naturally, appeared funny for the rest of us, for we didn't understand the misunderstandings of user1805. Apparently, user1805 thought Sami was stating claims about a real historical tribe, when Sami meant to speak about fictional Njerpez and him making verifications about the code simulating Njerpez behavior. Since user1805 has not been commenting after this clarification was made, I'm not sure if the original topic is settled, but I hope so =) Also, the original source of the confusion was that in the game the Njerpez are not attempting to conquer the entire UnReal World, but mostly just raiding around the eastern corner of the world. User1805 wanted to cite historical sources against that, presumably thinking that in the game the tribe should be reaching further to the north and to the west, since that is what Novgorod historically did. So, yes, earlier I was also thinking if I should ask Dark Art for more clarification on mentioning the Moscow Russia - I was waiting for user1805 to comment, but that didn't happen. I repeat; user1805 wrote more in the line that "THE NJERPEZ SHOULD BE AIMING TO EXPAND ALL THE WAY TO THE WEST AND TO THE NORTH, so how de hell do you claim that you know that they are raiding on the eastern part of the finnic territory?" I mean, to me it seemed that Dark Art also slightly misunderstood what user1805 tried to say, and then launched counter-arguments against a claim which maybe wasn't even made earlier in this thread. But this is all just human, it happens to all of us so often. And that is why I have this silly habit of stopping to ask for clarifications =) So what do we have here, then? If I understand correctly, everyone in this thread agrees that historically speaking Novgorod expanded their territory and raided neighbouring tribes. (Just like many other tribes did as well, and how numerous computer games are today about "be the hero, lead your tribe conquering more territory"). Also, I hope that everyone also agrees that in the game The Njerpez are not, and they do not need to be, 100% historically representation of Novgorod or any other bunch of people. It is fiction, and serves the purposes of the game world. But it has it sources and inspiration in history and Finnish folk stories.(And at this point I'd like to emphasize the "folk stories"-aspect. So, the most exact answer to the question "who were Njerpez" is: "they are inspired by the 'Raiders From the East' theme in the Finnish folk stories', and those folk stories in turn have their source in hundreds of years of hostilities with Finnish and Russian tribes. So, everyone agrees the central topics of this thread, yes? Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (for personally I dislike "top-down" mentality as much as user1805 does.) And then in addition to the original question this thread has had side paths, which is just natural for any human discussion. People feel a need to say aloud a few related thoughts which pop to their mind while reading the main discussion. So here we are; a few misunderstandings, a few semi-related side-remarks, a lot of good historical sources given. August 31, 2020, 06:17:39 PM |
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Re: Who were "Njerpez" ?
Not exactly a constant bandit raids I guess)) But in reality while thinking of marauding raiders I somehow let slip from my mind the matter of Russian-Swedish wars, which did happen pretty regularly during XV-XIX centuries. I do not want to elaborate now which of the two nations was an agressor in each instance (and of course, it is said in Russia that the Nöteborg 1323 peace treaty was not honoured by Sweden also, for example  ). But what I myself think on the matter is that two big countries vied for power in that region and the Finland was sometimes caught in the middle. In 1495 Vyborg was besieged not because of some explicit hostility against Finns. That siege was a part of the military campaign and city was defended by regular Swedish army garrison with Swede commandant Knut Posse in chief. But then, of course, there naturally were Finns in that garrison. That great blast is known to us as well, it is said in folklore that the blast was in the form of the St. Andrew's Cross, which meant that St. Andrew himself came to help the besieged, so Moscovian army withdrew.But we digress. So I too think that we can say now it is established that Njerpez culture is inspired by Novgorodians in the Finnish east circa 1000 A.D., that Muscovites and centralized Russian state as a whole should be left beside the discussion as it came to life much later, and that everybody present is more or less content with the things said. September 01, 2020, 11:53:27 AM |
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